Out with the youth; in with the youth

[Neurotic Guy]

Last year, prior to the big trades, the C's had the following young players/assets (say, under 24):
Kendrick Perkins
Leon Powe
Rajon Rondo
Delonte West
Al Jefferson
Justin Reed
Gerald Green
Ryan Gomes
2007 #5 pick (Jeff Green)
2009+ Minny #1

Since this time, the C's have traded....
Al
Delonte
Justin
Gerald
Ryan
2007 #5 pick
2009+ Minny #1

And have added...
Glen Davis
Patrick O'Bryant
Gabe Pruitt
Bill Walker
JR Giddens

So...here is the direct comparison of the youth pre and post the big trades:
Kendrick Perkins            Kendrick Perkins
Leon Powe                   Leon Powe
Rajon Rondo                 Rajon Rondo
Delonte West                Gabe Pruitt
Al Jefferson                Glen Davis
Justin Reed                 Bill Walker
Gerald Green                JR Giddens
Ryan Gomes                  Patrick O'Bryant
2007 #5 pick (Jeff Green)   
2009+ Minny #1

Now, I may have missed someone here, but if not, what an amazing job Danny is doing to continue to address both the present and future of this franchise simultaneously. 

While Al Jefferson is still the cream of this crop, Rondo is moving up the NBA ladder and we have a few solid contributors and perhaps a potential career starter or 2 amongst the remaining youth (including one already starting -- KP). I am not counting rookies or POB too soon here, just looking at the big picture and seeing possibilities -- seeing how comparable the current group is to the pre-trades group (sans Al).   And this is only the beginnning of Danny's re-gaining of assets for the future. I did not mention Erdin (sp? the Turkish big), but he may also be a piece of the future.

I was just impressed when I thought of this, especially since the big fear of the trades was the  loss of future assets.  Danny still has time to continue to gather chips before the Big Three age and he seems to be planning brilliantly as we gear up for another run in 2008-9.   

[billysan]

While it may be easy to debate the merits of each of these players and compare them statistically, the fact remains we were not winners with that first group dominating our roster. The second group is a work in progress to be sure, but why not throw Tony Allen into the mix with these guys? He certainly has earned a spot on the 'winning' side.

[Neurotic Guy]

While it may be easy to debate the merits of each of these players and compare them statistically, the fact remains we were not winners with that first group dominating our roster. The second group is a work in progress to be sure, but why not throw Tony Allen into the mix with these guys? He certainly has earned a spot on the 'winning' side.

Tony Allen was left out on a technicality.  He is 26 and too old for my arbitrary <24 list.   However, good point in that he is definitely young enough to be part of, or an asset for, the future.

My sole point really isn't to draw conclusions as to which group is better or more talented. But merely to point out that Danny is swiftly putting together chips as before -- only he's doing so as we are winning. I believe he is showing signs of building a franchise that will be poised to compete even after the current 3 begin to decline.  Obviously, its not a done deal, but the signs are there that Danny continues to move in positive directions.

[wdleehi]

None of the young guys he has brought on since trading for KG will ever be confused with a player you build around. 


The team has add role playing level youth, which is fine for the team they have. 


But they do not represent the future of the Celtics once the three stars are gone.  When it come time to rebuild, outside of Perkins and Rondo, maybe 2 or 3 more of the young guys are going to stay as role players. 

[hwangjini_1]

None of the young guys he has brought on since trading for KG will ever be confused with a player you build around. 


The team has add role playing level youth, which is fine for the team they have. 


But they do not represent the future of the Celtics once the three stars are gone.  When it come time to rebuild, outside of Perkins and Rondo, maybe 2 or 3 more of the young guys are going to stay as role players. 

good points. i just want to add that having a nice group of young players for the bench/role will make it easier to rebuild with stars on 2 levels.

1. when the big three leave, that opens up salary slots of danny to work with, AND, he still has price-controlled young guys with championship experience to help the new stars fit in.

2. as we have seen, young cheap talent can help bring in star talent. gomes, west, wally, telfair, and some picks did make allen and KG possible.

i had been of the opinion that in 3 years, the celtics would be bad for quite a while. that may still happen, but for now i am hopeful that danny can keep the celtics in contention for the championship for years to come. and the kids are one way to keep it going.

one last thing...if there is a potential star among kids (aside from possibly rondo) it might be walker. maybe.

[Greg]

What? Justin Reed wasn't with us last year before the big trades.  He was traded years ago, in the Wally deal. 

And you don't count Tony Allen as a young asset?  I would even through Telfair in the before group.

None of the young guys he has brought on since trading for KG will ever be confused with a player you build around. 


The team has add role playing level youth, which is fine for the team they have. 


But they do not represent the future of the Celtics once the three stars are gone.  When it come time to rebuild, outside of Perkins and Rondo, maybe 2 or 3 more of the young guys are going to stay as role players. 

You don't think Rondo is a guy that you MIGHT be able to build around?  I think he might be.

And there is also a chance that Bill Walker could be a real star.  He doesn't have the attitude, potential, or demeanor of a simple role player.  There is star in him, just as there was star in Gerald Green.  Whether he reaches that plateau remains to be seen.

There's also Glen Davis.  While he obviously isn't a player to build a team around, I think he has the potential and style to become a solid starter.  Maybe a 13/7/2 guy.

Screw Rocco Baldelli.  Crap.

Yeah, but overall, I agree that most of the youth are role players.

[wdleehi]

What? Justin Reed wasn't with us last year before the big trades.  He was traded years ago, in the Wally deal. 

And you don't count Tony Allen as a young asset?  I would even through Telfair in the before group.

None of the young guys he has brought on since trading for KG will ever be confused with a player you build around. 


The team has add role playing level youth, which is fine for the team they have. 


But they do not represent the future of the Celtics once the three stars are gone.  When it come time to rebuild, outside of Perkins and Rondo, maybe 2 or 3 more of the young guys are going to stay as role players. 

You don't think Rondo is a guy that you MIGHT be able to build around?  I think he might be.

And there is also a chance that Bill Walker could be a real star.  He doesn't have the attitude, potential, or demeanor of a simple role player.  There is star in him, just as there was star in Gerald Green.  Whether he reaches that plateau remains to be seen.

There's also Glen Davis.  While he obviously isn't a player to build a team around, I think he has the potential and style to become a solid starter.  Maybe a 13/7/2 guy.

Screw Rocco Baldelli.  Crap.

Yeah, but overall, I agree that most of the youth are role players.

1) Rondo was here before the KG trade.  And I see him being a future all-star, but not a guy you build around. 

2) Walker is a second round rookie that has not played a regular season game yet.  Jumping the gun a little there.

3) Davis is still a short PF that has weight issues.  He has a long way to go.

[Neurotic Guy]

What? Justin Reed wasn't with us last year before the big trades.  He was traded years ago, in the Wally deal. 

And you don't count Tony Allen as a young asset?  I would even through Telfair in the before group.

Oops -- not the biggest mistake I've ever made, but my memory was not reliable with regard to Justin Reed - my bad.   Re: Tony Allen -- I agree he is a young asset, but I made a decision in the original post to stay at 24 and under.  Not an important distinction really -- I'll gladly include him as a young asset.

The intent of this thread was not initially to make the argument that our current  young players are good enough to take over in 3 years.  We all know that most of these guys are unproven and some clearly have ceilings that place them as career rotation players at best.   My point was simple -- to point out that Danny is already building his assets like before.  We don't have another Big Al yet to build around or use as serious bait, but Danny's skills are starting to shine again and he has a few years to continue.  I'm just saying -- good start on the road to rebuilding the youth.

Actually, Hwangjini had it nailed -- please read his post.

[no kidding]

A good topic, nice observations, Neurotic Guy (Tommy Point).

And here's hoping Darius Miles can also someday be added to the list of Ainge's young acquisitions.

[Greg]

What? Justin Reed wasn't with us last year before the big trades.  He was traded years ago, in the Wally deal. 

And you don't count Tony Allen as a young asset?  I would even through Telfair in the before group.

None of the young guys he has brought on since trading for KG will ever be confused with a player you build around. 


The team has add role playing level youth, which is fine for the team they have. 


But they do not represent the future of the Celtics once the three stars are gone.  When it come time to rebuild, outside of Perkins and Rondo, maybe 2 or 3 more of the young guys are going to stay as role players. 

You don't think Rondo is a guy that you MIGHT be able to build around?  I think he might be.

And there is also a chance that Bill Walker could be a real star.  He doesn't have the attitude, potential, or demeanor of a simple role player.  There is star in him, just as there was star in Gerald Green.  Whether he reaches that plateau remains to be seen.

There's also Glen Davis.  While he obviously isn't a player to build a team around, I think he has the potential and style to become a solid starter.  Maybe a 13/7/2 guy.

Screw Rocco Baldelli.  Crap.

Yeah, but overall, I agree that most of the youth are role players.

1) Rondo was here before the KG trade.  And I see him being a future all-star, but not a guy you build around. 

2) Walker is a second round rookie that has not played a regular season game yet.  Jumping the gun a little there.

3) Davis is still a short PF that has weight issues.  He has a long way to go.

1) My bad I didn't see you say the thing brought in since the KG trade.  I also see him being a a future all-star, but he could be a stop-gap between GPA and the next era.  So maybe you're not building around him, but he will be a very important presence.

2) While I am jumping the gun a little, I really do see him as a hit or miss player.  I think that there is a chance he could be a star player.  I also think there's a chance that injuries derail him out of the league in 3 years.  But I've thought this long before we traded for him.

3) I know Davis has a long way to go, but I really do like a lot of the things he can do.  He will never ever ever be a guy who you're team builds around.  And there's a 99% chance he won't ever be an all-star.  But I think that he has the skills, strength, and attitude to become a starter.  Not a great starter, but a solid starter.  Sure, he has a very long way to go.  He needs to get more trim, cut down on the turnovers, improve his defensive rebounding -- but I think the skillset is there.  We will see.

[amenhotep04]

Did someone actually suggest Gerald Green may still become a star?

Wow.

[billysan]

While it may be easy to debate the merits of each of these players and compare them statistically, the fact remains we were not winners with that first group dominating our roster. The second group is a work in progress to be sure, but why not throw Tony Allen into the mix with these guys? He certainly has earned a spot on the 'winning' side.

Tony Allen was left out on a technicality.  He is 26 and too old for my arbitrary <24 list.   However, good point in that he is definitely young enough to be part of, or an asset for, the future.

My sole point really isn't to draw conclusions as to which group is better or more talented. But merely to point out that Danny is swiftly putting together chips as before -- only he's doing so as we are winning. I believe he is showing signs of building a franchise that will be poised to compete even after the current 3 begin to decline.  Obviously, its not a done deal, but the signs are there that Danny continues to move in positive directions.

I get your point and agree. Problem I see is timing and a window of opportunity that is only a couple of years wide coming up. We only have a few valuable assets in the form of contracts or role players. When we trade them and what our return from that trade becomes.... that is where these new chips are most important.

We must get a next generation superstar, an 'up and coming' player or a terrific draft pick to fully justify these 'chips' value. Adding a 'steal' player for the full midlevel who will come to Boston for a reasonable chance at a ring and stay to lead the next wave would be the ultimate IMO.

I think we need to get the big three to start working the phones early next summer and 'networking' like they did with PJ Brown. That is going to be as they say 'the trick' to get it done.

[Bozo]

Patrick is also a young.  And has the potential to be something you could build around.  A long ways to go, but long 7 footers, with talent, are unusual.

[JBcat]

What? Justin Reed wasn't with us last year before the big trades.  He was traded years ago, in the Wally deal. 

And you don't count Tony Allen as a young asset?  I would even through Telfair in the before group.

Oops -- not the biggest mistake I've ever made, but my memory was not reliable with regard to Justin Reed - my bad.   Re: Tony Allen -- I agree he is a young asset, but I made a decision in the original post to stay at 24 and under.  Not an important distinction really -- I'll gladly include him as a young asset.

The intent of this thread was not initially to make the argument that our current  young players are good enough to take over in 3 years.  We all know that most of these guys are unproven and some clearly have ceilings that place them as career rotation players at best.   My point was simple -- to point out that Danny is already building his assets like before.  We don't have another Big Al yet to build around or use as serious bait, but Danny's skills are starting to shine again and he has a few years to continue.  I'm just saying -- good start on the road to rebuilding the youth.

Actually, Hwangjini had it nailed -- please read his post.

Just a small detail that was missed Gomes is 26 so I think it's fine to include Tony Allen in the "young" group.  

Very interesting topic and for Danny to have replenish the youth in a little over a year since the big trades is impressive while still being a favorite to win. 

A sidenote.  I created a topic a while back of who would win an imaginary pick up game from the youth that left us in the 2 big trades Telfair, West, Green, Gomes, and Jefferson against the young talent aquired since the day of the big trades Pruitt, Giddens, Walker, Davis, and O'Bryant.   It was probably too early for a topic like that but say midseason we can reopen the thread.  I had said as of now the old youth team would win handily because of the Jefferson factor but if this game was played say 5 years from now when all these players are developed it could be much closer. 

[Eris]

I think I'd do the comparison this way...


Then........................Now................Better
Kendrick Perkins............Kendrick Perkins...Now
Leon Powe...................Leon Powe..........Now
Rajon Rondo.................Rajon Rondo........Now
Delonte West................Gabe Pruitt........Then
Al Jefferson................Patrick O'Bryant...Then
2007 #5 pick (Jeff Green)...Bill Walker........Incomplete
Gerald Green................JR Giddens.........Incomplete
Ryan Gomes..................Glen Davis.........Then
2009+ Minny #1..............future Erden.......Incomplete


I don't see an Al Jefferson among the current crop of "chips", but Pruitt could reach West's level, Davis could reach Gomes' level, Walker and Giddens could become more valuable as chips than the two Greens were when Danny traded them and quite *possibly* better players, too. O'Bryant is unlikely to ever be worth as much as Big Al in a deal, but he *is* very big and big Centers always seem to command higher prices than other positions of equal talent.