Author Topic: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.  (Read 8801 times)

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Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 03:37:14 PM »

Offline Chris

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I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).

Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 03:41:24 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Jsaad, it's a commendable idea but the NBA will only invest money in global expansion and markets, not the super saturation of a market that already has two very successful forms of basketball in it, that being the NBA and the NCAA.

With the economy being like it is people have only so much money to spend for entertainment. Minor league basketball will not be one of them. But the economy in other parts of the world is growing and the entertainment dollars to be spent their could easily be spent on NBA quality basketball. With a South American division, a European division and a Southeast Asia/Australian division the NBA would tap into untold amounts of new NBA talent and bring in thousands times more money.

Think about it. Does the NBA want to invest in untapped giant metropolitan markets where they then might get kids who would ordinarily grow up playing soccer to then make basketball their main sport, expand the sport and make tons of cash, or do they want to invest in a minor league system where they might get 5000 people filling some nothing arena in Louisville, Birmingham, Nashua, Boise, Omaha, and Santa Fe?

Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2008, 03:57:48 PM »

Offline JSD

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I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).

ROI = Return on investment. I estimated $7 - $10 Million max for Players and coaching staff. The owners of the club would be responsible for the rest (travel, lodge, venue, practice facility) just like baseball.

Contracts: (again like baseball)
Major league
Minor league

- Rookies stay the same with 3rd round picks making a tad less.
- Raise the salary cap and luxury Tax zone up by 10 million.

NBDL #'s would not be accurate for this league because teams have no affiliate of identity. Imagine if the Celtics have a Pawsox like minor league team in Lowell or Manchester!? The fact they are affiliated with the Celtics along would draw 4000 a night and sold out on weekends.

 


Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 04:13:19 PM »

Offline JSD

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Jsaad, it's a commendable idea but the NBA will only invest money in global expansion and markets, not the super saturation of a market that already has two very successful forms of basketball in it, that being the NBA and the NCAA.

With the economy being like it is people have only so much money to spend for entertainment. Minor league basketball will not be one of them. But the economy in other parts of the world is growing and the entertainment dollars to be spent their could easily be spent on NBA quality basketball. With a South American division, a European division and a Southeast Asia/Australian division the NBA would tap into untold amounts of new NBA talent and bring in thousands times more money.

Think about it. Does the NBA want to invest in untapped giant metropolitan markets where they then might get kids who would ordinarily grow up playing soccer to then make basketball their main sport, expand the sport and make tons of cash, or do they want to invest in a minor league system where they might get 5000 people filling some nothing arena in Louisville, Birmingham, Nashua, Boise, Omaha, and Santa Fe?

Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

Tp Nick, great point, there is more money and could be unspeakable amounts of talent developed is the places you've mentioned and a for-profit cooperation will go for the doe...

I do still believe a legit Minor league here in the states would be profitable, popular and allow the families that aren't going to NBA games now (because of the cost) the opportunity to see high level professional basketball.

But I concede, it probably won't happen...

If you have pocket Aces and given the choice are you going bet 1000 chips to $10,000 or $100,000,000?

Easy decision.

Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 04:17:29 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I agree with Nick and Doug. The NCAA is already a formidable farm system. What would make that league more appealing than the NBDL, jsaad? And there's a reason why so many minor basketball leagues in the US have no success.

Allowing NBA franchises to keep more than 15 players under contract would only be significant if the salary cap is substantially raised. But that's a terrible idea in the long term, as would put most of the teams out of contention and eventually erode the fanbase.

Quote
Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

I agree with your general reasoning Nick, but I think that the expansion is a terrible idea in the foreseeable future (apart from being a logistic nightmare). There aren't enough basketball/NBA fans, simple as that; and those that exist are mostly club fans - no Real Madrid (or Joventut, Siena, Maccabi, PAO, etc.) fan would change the allegiance from his club to some new NBA franchise.

But, as Stern has noticed, every basketball fan is a potential NBA fan. Eventually, he'll subscribe to sports channels that broadcast NBA games (check), buy apparel and NBA merchandising (check), spend some holidays in the US to see NBA games live (check) and be well aware of products and services offered by the NBA sponsors (check). The same can't be said about someone who doesn't even know the rules of the game - a sizable majority of the European population.

p.s. - Side note to Steve Weinman: in your next interview with Mr. Silver, you may want to ask him if it doesn't make more sense to offer international NBA fans the chance of buying the League Pass instead of talking about semi-utopic expansion projects. It's not like we don't have access to it anyway, they're just losing money.

Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 04:19:17 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I understand what your saying though,It will cost NBA teams money but I believe it's worth the investment.

Why is it worth the investment though?  If they can't bring in major revenue that will offset the extra expenses of a farm team, and extra players on the payroll, it doesn't make much sense.

As I said, through marketing and the promotion of both there team and the game of basketball NBA Teams would achieve a ROI on a $7 -$10 million a year commitment....

Also, think it would also result in a (mature/better) NBA product.

I missed that...but I am a little confused.  First, what is ROI?  Also, where are you getting the $7-$10 million figure?  And would this be all of the money that goes to the NBA owners?

I think the real problem here is that in order to have a true minor league system, the rosters are going to expand.  The only way the players association will buy into it is if 1. first round picks are still on pro contracts, and 2. they are convinced that this will open up more roster spots for veterans (which should be the case).  This means that instead of having 3 or 4 spots per team filled up with young guys on tiny contracts, those spots would then be filled with veterans on larger contracts.  Or put more simply, this is going to be a significant investment by the owners, and they will want to see very good reason for doing it.

I also think you are really overestimating the kind of interest there would be in this minor-league.  I think you need to look at the NBDL attendance to get an idea of what to expect.  And you are basically looking at attendance numbers anywhere from 700-3300 (based on 2006-2007 attendance numbers).  It might be slightly higher if there are more recognizable names on the teams, and they are in the same region as their affiliate, but I wouldn't expect too much more.  Remember, even the Celtics were having a very hard time filling seats just a couple of years ago.  If they are only bringing in that many people (or even twice that many), they are not going to be able to sustain in places like Lowell or Worcester (the price of operation at the Tsongas arena and Centrum would likely be higher than the actual ticket revenue...and they would likely just keep the dates open to try to attract concerts, which bring in much more money).

ROI = Return on investment. I estimated $7 - $10 Million max for Players and coaching staff. The owners of the club would be responsible for the rest (travel, lodge, venue, practice facility) just like baseball.

Contracts: (again like baseball)
Major league
Minor league

- Rookies stay the same with 3rd round picks making a tad less.
- Raise the salary cap and luxury Tax zone up by 10 million.

NBDL #'s would not be accurate for this league because teams have no affiliate of identity. Imagine if the Celtics have a Pawsox like minor league team in Lowell or Manchester!? The fact they are affiliated with the Celtics along would draw 4000 a night and sold out on weekends.

 



I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation.  

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.

  


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Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2008, 06:39:03 PM »

Offline PerkinsERA43

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what should happen is that the NBA adjusts to a system much like soccer. Professional soccer teams have an active roster of about 15, with 11 starters and 4-7 subs who can come in at any time (with a limit of 3 total substitutions per game). Then, each team has a large group of 8-12 reserve players. These players are under contract, practice with the team, but until they are designated as either substitutes or starters, they are not allowed to enter game action. This would allow teams to stockpile talent, and actually have more project big men pan out. Of course, you could never have 8-12 reserves, since there are only 5 men on the court at a time. Something like 4-6 sounds reasonable.

The idea of a minor league is a good one in theory, but no one would watch the games, and it would hemmorage money. The reserve system, I think, is the ideal middle ground. Score one for Futbol.


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Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 09:46:24 PM »

Online nickagneta

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I agree with Nick and Doug. The NCAA is already a formidable farm system. What would make that league more appealing than the NBDL, jsaad? And there's a reason why so many minor basketball leagues in the US have no success.

Allowing NBA franchises to keep more than 15 players under contract would only be significant if the salary cap is substantially raised. But that's a terrible idea in the long term, as would put most of the teams out of contention and eventually erode the fanbase.

Quote
Stern wants teams in Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid, Athens, Moscow, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janiero, Brasilia, and places of that ilk. The last thing he wants to do is try to squeeze more pennies out of the American market when there's billions to be made elsewhere.

I agree with your general reasoning Nick, but I think that the expansion is a terrible idea in the foreseeable future (apart from being a logistic nightmare). There aren't enough basketball/NBA fans, simple as that; and those that exist are mostly club fans - no Real Madrid (or Joventut, Siena, Maccabi, PAO, etc.) fan would change the allegiance from his club to some new NBA franchise.

But, as Stern has noticed, every basketball fan is a potential NBA fan. Eventually, he'll subscribe to sports channels that broadcast NBA games (check), buy apparel and NBA merchandising (check), spend some holidays in the US to see NBA games live (check) and be well aware of products and services offered by the NBA sponsors (check). The same can't be said about someone who doesn't even know the rules of the game - a sizable majority of the European population.

p.s. - Side note to Steve Weinman: in your next interview with Mr. Silver, you may want to ask him if it doesn't make more sense to offer international NBA fans the chance of buying the League Pass instead of talking about semi-utopic expansion projects. It's not like we don't have access to it anyway, they're just losing money.
I agree cordobes. I am not sure logistically that the NBA could ever pull off the expansion I suggested but I do believe that the idea is Stern's long term dream for the sport and something he would be more willing to invest in for the future rather than a minor league system.

Also, if Stern is going to pull off something like that it would more than likely have to be a situation where the existing teams(Olympiakos, Maccabi T.A., CSKA Moscow, Real Madrid, etc.) in cities the NBA would expand to would be teams that would be brought into the NBA circa the ABA-NBA merger. That way Stern could set up an American League and an International League like baseball with each league playing exclusively with teams in their league and then have a true World Championship after each league crowns it's champion.

Anyway, I think that would be the only feasible way of doing it and it would mean investing a ton money into some of these teams and their facilities. Just an idea by that is something that Stern would invest in.

Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 11:57:36 PM »

Offline JSD

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Nick, Why has David Stern and the NBA invested into the WNBA? The Woman's league has never had a single profitable season.

Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2008, 12:56:34 AM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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Jsaad I agree with you 10000% about the benefits of a true Triple A minor league -- it will let trams like the Cs keep giddens, pruitt etc in the minors and instead spend the money on a guy like pargo who's proven he belongs ib the NBA.

On other role of a minor leauge system -- teams would be wise to draft semi-regionally. Guys like gerry macnamara, dan cross (4 year UF guard) etc have followings in college and while they may never be NBA all-stars can clearly play the game.

Finally some of the costs would be paid for through local sponsorships.

And I know that I'd follow the Tampa or Jackdsonville magic and see them when they'd play the worcester celtics.

Just my 4 cents :)
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Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2008, 07:21:08 AM »

Offline JSD

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Quote
I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation. 

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.(Donoghus)

Wouldn't you agree people are infatuated with the P word? <potential>... I think it would be a fascinating league and I'm confident many others would.

Gabe Pruitt, Bill walker,  Semih Erden and possibly O'Bryant, Darious miles and Giddens would all be getting some minor league love at some point this season.
Also consider rehab starts. Tony Allen could have been starting in the league a good portion of last season and would have benefited from it on many different levels (especially the confidence department).

Re: The NBA needs a legit "farm" system here in the states.
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2008, 07:55:32 AM »

Offline thebirdman

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So how much would these guys get payed? There is no way a European prospect would come over to play in some "minor" league for small money...


Re: Let's get a legit Minor league system here in the states!
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2008, 10:11:31 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote
I have serious doubts that a minor league team consisting on one or two guys who might crack an NBA roster and a bunch of nobodies will draw in serious crowds despite the affiliation. 

I really don't think that you'll get 5,000 people to see Bill Walker & Friends take on Josh McRoberts & Crew.(Donoghus)

Wouldn't you agree people are infatuated with the P word? <potential>... I think it would be a fascinating league and I'm confident many others would.

Gabe Pruitt, Bill walker,  Semih Erden and possibly O'Bryant, Darious miles and Giddens would all be getting some minor league love at some point this season.
Also consider rehab starts. Tony Allen could have been starting in the league a good portion of last season and would have benefited from it on many different levels (especially the confidence department).


People do like potential.  Minor league baseball is thriving due in large part to that.  The problem is that I don't really see many legit NBA potential guys playing in this league for several reasons.  Top talent (1st round picks and some 2nd rounders) are going to go straight to an NBA roster.  The rest of these guys are going to have an outside chance, at best, at ever seen an NBA roster.  So you're talking about guys who are held by NBA teams but don't realistically have much of a shot at making an NBA roster.  Most of the NBA ready talent that can't get drafted yet are going to be playing NCAA basketball.  That's the way its been and that's the way I seeing it continuing. 

Its pretty obvious that you're not the typical, casual basketball fan.  I have NO doubts that this league would be of interest to YOU.  However, the names Gabe Pruitt, Semith Erden and such are not going to attract the typical casual basketball fan to the arena.  I don't see the interest level being extremely high among the non-diehards.  From that point alone, I don't see the NBA investing in something like this.  They already the NBDL and if they're getting guys from the NCAA and Europe at no cost to them, why would they want to pump money into something?


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