Author Topic: Discovery or Doom?  (Read 8185 times)

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Discovery or Doom?
« on: September 09, 2008, 12:02:11 PM »

Offline jgod213

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Although the construction of this incredible scientific machine has been going on for over a decade, this morning was the first time i've heard of the experiment to take place tomorrow and it's potential ramifications.  Tomorrow, the Large Hadron Collider will begin it's "quest for the Higgs boson, the search for supersymmetric particles and even the evidence for extra dimensions."

Although this research could be ground breaking, the experiment itself has drawn more attention due to some who believe that black holes that are created could threaten our very existence:

Quote
But if the feedback so far is any guide, the real headline-grabber is the claim that the world's most powerful particle-smasher could create microscopic black holes that some fear would gobble up the planet.

The black-hole scenario is even getting its day in court: Critics of the project have called for the suspension of work on the European collider until the scenario receives a more thorough safety review, filing separate legal challenges in U.S. federal court and the European Court of Human Rights.

The strange case of the planet-eating black hole serves as just one example showing how grand scientific projects can lead to a collision between science fiction and science fact. The hubbub also has led some to question why billions of dollars are being spent on a physics experiment so removed from everyday life.

Quote
The black holes that may (or may not) be generated by the Large Hadron Collider would have theoretical rather than practical applications.

If the collider's detectors turn up evidence of black holes, that would suggest that gravity is stronger on a subatomic scale than it is on the distance scales scientists have been able to measure so far. That, in turn, would support the weird idea that we live in a 10- or 11-dimensional universe, with some of the dimensions rolled up so tightly that they can't be perceived.
 
Some theorists say the idea would explain why gravity is so much weaker than the universe's other fundamental forces — for example, why a simple magnet can match the entire Earth's gravitational force pulling on a paper clip. These theorists suggest that much of the gravitational field is "leaking out" into the extra dimensions.

"It will be extremely exciting if the LHC did produce black holes," CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis said.  "OK, so some people are going to say, 'Black holes? Those big things eating up stars?' No. These are microscopic, tiny little black holes.  And they’re extremely unstable.  They would disappear almost as soon as they were produced."

Not everyone is convinced that the black holes would disappear. "It doesn't have to be that way," said Walter Wagner, a former radiation safety officer with a law degree who is one of the plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit. Despite a series of reassuring scientific studies, Wagner and others insist that the black holes might not fizzle out, and they fear that the mini-singularities produced by the Large Hadron Collider will fall to the center of the earth, grow larger and swallow more and more of Earth's matter.

Another issue is that many feel that all these millions of dollars won't result in any tangible benefit for you and me.  Though many scientists note that benefits could result in the form of advanced understanding in the telemcommunications, medicinal, and energy fields, CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis said "I think the primary justification for this sort of science that we do is fundamental human curiosity."

Although a lot of this stuff goes right over my head, i think it's all very fascinating.  My personal opinion is - if the thing is already built and there is no hard data suggesting anything harmful could result, i'm all for running this machine and hearing the results.  the only way to advance our understanding of the universe is to push our current knowledge and scientific capabilities to their limits.

The article on MSNBC can be found here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24556999

Pictures of the Atom Smasher can be found here:
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/the_large_hadron_collider.html

i highly reccommend checking out both.  Results of tomorrow's experiment (assuming they stay on schedule and don't obliterate mankind) won't be known for about a month following.

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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 12:09:55 PM »

Offline celticmaestro

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I read somewhere the world is supposed to end on September 10th (tomorrow).

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 12:14:05 PM »

Offline Scott

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My dad was telling me about this, I will have to read a bit more about before I can really comment.  TP for the interesting subject.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 12:17:21 PM »

Offline ChampKind

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Hah.  I knew when I read the title exactly what you were talking about.

If I had to bet, I'd say that LHC fails to reach its target speeds and suffers from power supply problems. 

Or, it destroys us all.  One of the two.
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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 12:23:14 PM »

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Those pictures are pretty intense.  I didn't realize the scale of that thing until a few pictures down. 

They must have a hell of an electric bill.
Yup

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 12:25:44 PM »

Offline kgiessler

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There is a gross misconception that the LHC can create black holes that will devour our existence.

It can create unstable black holes that can devour themselves.  Black holes do have an event horizon, and the ones that it would generate are too small to do anything. 

There was never any question about this among the engineers behind the project.  Basically someone got a hold of 'black hole' and misinformation spread quickly. There are very few individuals propagating these worries to individuals that don't understand enough to make the determination themselves.

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/21/newsflash-the-lhc-wont-punch-****-in-the-earth-after-all/

Regarding whether or not it will be successful:  its a high risk, high reward item.  If it succeeds, our understanding of the universe is advanced greatly for what would be considered small research money.  Should it fail, hopefully it will show something.
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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 12:37:45 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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my wife was telling me about this yesterday...if the world is indeed going to end on the 10th, then her and i will have to have some "quality" time tonight... :-*
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 12:43:22 PM »

Offline jpd985

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Do the ones bringing forward this lawsuit have any scientific expertise at all? The one plaintiff mentioned was a radiation safety officer who has a law degree.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 12:44:19 PM »

Offline ACF

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 01:00:07 PM »

Offline jgod213

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I clicked the link and our computer
started acting all weird.
A sign of things to come!?  ;)
"Large Hadron Collider"... Sounds like
something out of a Ray Bradbury novel.


Yea the Boston.com link has about 27 pictures and they're all pretty big and and detailed - might give your computer a fit for a minute or so.

Something funny that i found in the Metro today...

Q: "If the world ended today, how would you spend your last 5 minutes?"

A: Some guy "Sit down, drink a couple beers, and play a game of Keno"

Love to give that guy a TP.  I'd probably try and pull a KG - jump in a porsche, stick my head out the window, and bomb it up to 140.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 01:22:15 PM by jgod213 »

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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 01:57:31 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I call BS... 

This whole thing is probably just some viral marketing for some upcoming sci-fi movie.  I bet J.J. Abrams is behind it.   That machine probably is CGI.  Yeah...   it's probably hype for the new Star Trek movie or something.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 02:01:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I have to agree with kgiessler that if the engineers and physicists that have been working on this and have the most expertise in this area have no worries regarding the integrity of the experiments being done, then why does it have to be stopped?

They used a layman's term to describe what was being generated and suddenly all the stories of a child's youth and imagination take over and the world is going to end due to a subatomic gravitational entity who's expected life duration is minuscule. If they want to try to capture the Higgs boson, this symmetrical subatomic particle and believe it could lead to the harnessing and understanding of dimensions and gravity loss, let them.

Who knows what the knowledge could lead to.

And I love the justification in a few of these articles questioning the experiment because why should money be spent in the pursuit of knowledge when it should be spent on trying to make our lives easier. What a load of complete crap that is. With all the money that is wasted by people and governments today, people are questioning the use of funds to increase humankind's knowledge and understanding of the universe.

It doesn't matter that this experiment could lead to the understanding of some new energy source, dimensional travel through space, or any one of a million other uses most science fiction novels describe. No what's important is that when I drive in a tunnel and am illegally talking on a cell phone while driving, I still get crystal clear reception.

Unreal.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 09:16:41 AM »

Offline jgod213

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9:16am EST - still "alive" in my cubicle.

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Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 09:26:08 AM »

Offline Chris

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9:16am EST - still "alive" in my cubicle.

We're fine today.  What we really have to worry about, is if the pope dies...then we can start worrying about anti-matter bombs.

Re: Discovery or Doom?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2008, 09:31:56 AM »

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Who knows what the knowledge could lead to...

It doesn't matter that this experiment could lead to the understanding of some new energy source, dimensional travel through space, or any one of a million other uses most science fiction novels describe. No what's important is that when I drive in a tunnel and am illegally talking on a cell phone while driving, I still get crystal clear reception.


I had a pretty fun conversation with my almost 6 year old daughter while driving her to school this morning (she started kindergarten last week).  She wanted to know a bit about how our country got started...Anyhow, in the course of giving her the brief version I had to answer the inevitable "Why" question about people settling in North America.  I told because humans are very "curious" and always want to know more.  There was more to conversation, but here I was talking to an information sponge (my daughter) about the basis of all human advances in technology etc...Where a very curious species.

So I dropped her off and looked back at the school as another busload of kids embarked on another day of learning, and I started thinking about how amazing it is on a very surface level that we, as a species, have a place where we go for a good solid chunk of early lives just to develop that curiosity.   On a purely evolutionary level it's amazing to me that a species can make that jump in such a relatively short period of time.

Yup