Start Tony, Ray off the bench

[celticmaestro]

No.

Or, as we say in Denmark, "nej".

Nein, non, não, нет, ingen.

The same answer in many languages.

[banty19]

I don't think this should happen either but uber-conservative thinking is one of the reason championship teams often regress. I don't think this would work because:

1. Ray Allen has too much of an ego (and rightfully so) to be replaced in the starting lineup by Tony Allen. Doc would lose a lot of respect in the locker room.

2. Ray Allen doesn't seem to like to take it to the hoop in the regular season so his value is primarily as a shooter. Without other good players on the floor, he won't get quality looks.

With that said, I do think this idea should be considered conditionally if the Celtics are facing a fast, perimeter scorer like Kobe. Say what you want about TA, but he is a plus defender. Ray and Pierce can't handle Kobe (without KG and Perk's help) and even if they could, it'd be better if they expended their energy on offense.

[crownsy]

I don't think this should happen either but uber-conservative thinking is one of the reason championship teams often regress. I don't think this would work because:

1. Ray Allen has too much of an ego (and rightfully so) to be replaced in the starting lineup by Tony Allen. Doc would lose a lot of respect in the locker room.

2. Ray Allen doesn't seem to like to take it to the hoop in the regular season so his value is primarily as a shooter. Without other good players on the floor, he won't get quality looks.

With that said, I do think this idea should be considered conditionally if the Celtics are facing a fast, perimeter scorer like Kobe. Say what you want about TA, but he is a plus defender. Ray and Pierce can't handle Kobe (without KG and Perk's help) and even if they could, it'd be better if they expended their energy on offense.

while i agree with the post, point 2 is a common misconception by celtics fans i wanted to address. I belive this ties in directly with the "ray needs to be more consistant!" crowd, who see ray as a spot up shooter and nothing else. Ray allen is a complete player. he can do it all.

Ray is the third option, and a great shooter. The third option RARLEY gets the ball with enough time on the clock to drive. Also, he's been asked to space the floor.

In the playoffs, doc ran more plays for ray, and allowed him more freedom in the offense. thus, he went back to his normal game of driving as well.

Ray allen is one of the better drivers in the league, he didn't forget how to do it once he left seattle. he adapted to his role and touches in the offense. He just does it less because as the "shooter" 3rd option, he often gets the pass off a pierce drive.

[JR Giddens]

^^^^^^ Ray is not one of the best drivers in the league. He's not in the same category as Lebron, AI, Tony Parker, Dwayne Wade, Kobe, or even Paul Pierce for that matter.

Don't let Sasha Vujacic's broken ankles confuse you!

[nickagneta]

^^^^^^ Ray is not one of the best drivers in the league. He's not in the same category as Lebron, AI, Tony Parker, Dwayne Wade, Kobe, or even Paul Pierce for that matter.

Don't let Sasha Vujacic's broken ankles confuse you!

Just because you don't finish a drive with a dunk or do it ad nauseum in every game doesn't mean that you can't be one of the better drivers in the league. Ray Allen can drive to the basket extremely well. One of the best in the league? That's debateable, but he does have exceptional talent in driving to the basket. Don't let the way that Doc used him last year confuse you as to just how good he is at that aspect of the game.

[P2]

Here's another suggestion: Start Ray, and throw Tony off a bridge. I'd much rather like to see Giddens or Walker.

[crownsy]

^^^^^^ Ray is not one of the best drivers in the league. He's not in the same category as Lebron, AI, Tony Parker, Dwayne Wade, Kobe, or even Paul Pierce for that matter.

Don't let Sasha Vujacic's broken ankles confuse you!

you seem to have confused dunking with being a good driver.

mabey, as nick alluded, i shoudl have said "dangerous driver" or "really, really good at getting into the paint" Ray's age has conspired to take alittle of his athletism away, though he's still extremly dangerous.


Though, to be fair, from age 20-28 or so, ray was one of the better dunkers in the NBA.

go watch some of his you tube highlights from seattle. he's one of the best finshers at the rim in the league. just because he uses layups instead of dunks does not mean it isn't true. There's a reason he was often among the western conferance leaders in FT's when he was the 1st option, and it wasen't because he got foul'd on 3 pt attempts.

This perception that ray was a 3 point only gunner in seattle makes me chuckle. the guy averaged 25+ most years, it wasent from being a better version of eddie house, which is what many celtics fans seem to think of him as. Ray is dangerous from everywhere, just as pierce is. paul is a better slasher, no doubt, but that doesn't make ray any less dangerous.

 

[jay_jay54]

No.

Or, as we say in Denmark, "nej".

Nein, non, não, нет, ingen.

The same answer in many languages.

what about..oh gracious h*** NO

[DAS]

Actually I like the idea, games aren't won or lost in the first 6-8 minutes of the first quarter. Ray will still get his minutes ,  but his presence will help alleviate some of the droughts that have occurred when Doc goes to the bench.

Another possibility is for Doc to stagger the substitution pattern .......often times he has the BIG 3 sitting at the same time, the beauty of having three super stars is that at any given point of the game he will ALWAYS have at least one super star on the floor.

[Kwhit10]

Don't over value the times when Tony Allen was a good player.  He is decent at best, no need to change a working formula that has won a championship.

[crownsy]

Another possibility is for Doc to stagger the substitution pattern .......often times he has the BIG 3 sitting at the same time, the beauty of having three super stars is that at any given point of the game he will ALWAYS have at least one super star on the floor.

this is in fact blatantly untrue. doc very rarley  sits all three of them, barring a blow out. its one of the only sub patterns he held to all year long.

Usualy pierce or allen stays out while KG goes to the bench first with one or the other.

doc mentioned throughout the year that he does this to keep one of them out on the floor as the bench's scorer, it was ussualy pierce, since he can open up the shots for house and posey.

it will be intersting to see if doc keeps going with pierce in this role or tries something else now that they only have house to spot up.

[nickagneta]

Another possibility is for Doc to stagger the substitution pattern .......often times he has the BIG 3 sitting at the same time, the beauty of having three super stars is that at any given point of the game he will ALWAYS have at least one super star on the floor.

this is in fact blatantly untrue. doc very rarley  sits all three of them, barring a blow out. its one of the only sub patterns he held to all year long.

Usualy pierce or allen stays out while KG goes to the bench first with one or the other.

doc mentioned throughout the year that he does this to keep one of them out on the floor as the bench's scorer, it was ussualy pierce, since he can open up the shots for house and posey.

it will be intersting to see if doc keeps going with pierce in this role or tries something else now that they only have house to spot up.

I seem to remember seeing an awful lot of the "Green" team out on the floor as a collective unit and not a starter to be found. An awful lot. Too much for my liking.

I too would prefer a normal substitution pattern and then bring in players 10, 11, and 12 during garbage time. But we are dealing with Doc and he is absolutely infatuated with playing an entire substitute team at times.

[Chris]

Another possibility is for Doc to stagger the substitution pattern .......often times he has the BIG 3 sitting at the same time, the beauty of having three super stars is that at any given point of the game he will ALWAYS have at least one super star on the floor.

this is in fact blatantly untrue. doc very rarley  sits all three of them, barring a blow out. its one of the only sub patterns he held to all year long.

Usualy pierce or allen stays out while KG goes to the bench first with one or the other.

doc mentioned throughout the year that he does this to keep one of them out on the floor as the bench's scorer, it was ussualy pierce, since he can open up the shots for house and posey.

it will be intersting to see if doc keeps going with pierce in this role or tries something else now that they only have house to spot up.

I seem to remember seeing an awful lot of the "Green" team out on the floor as a collective unit and not a starter to be found. An awful lot. Too much for my liking.

I too would prefer a normal substitution pattern and then bring in players 10, 11, and 12 during garbage time. But we are dealing with Doc and he is absolutely infatuated with playing an entire substitute team at times.

I think you are probably just remember the last 10 games of the season or so then.  Up until that point, there was rarely a time when one of the Big 3 wasn't on the floor, and ussually at least 2 of them were there.  Seriously, look back at the game logs, it almost never happened.

[crownsy]

Another possibility is for Doc to stagger the substitution pattern .......often times he has the BIG 3 sitting at the same time, the beauty of having three super stars is that at any given point of the game he will ALWAYS have at least one super star on the floor.

this is in fact blatantly untrue. doc very rarley  sits all three of them, barring a blow out. its one of the only sub patterns he held to all year long.

Usualy pierce or allen stays out while KG goes to the bench first with one or the other.

doc mentioned throughout the year that he does this to keep one of them out on the floor as the bench's scorer, it was ussualy pierce, since he can open up the shots for house and posey.

it will be intersting to see if doc keeps going with pierce in this role or tries something else now that they only have house to spot up.

I seem to remember seeing an awful lot of the "Green" team out on the floor as a collective unit and not a starter to be found. An awful lot. Too much for my liking.

I too would prefer a normal substitution pattern and then bring in players 10, 11, and 12 during garbage time. But we are dealing with Doc and he is absolutely infatuated with playing an entire substitute team at times.

not until the last month, when we were blatntly coasting and the big 3's minutes dropped to 25 a game.

I dont know where we would find stats for it, but i would bet that for the first 60 games, rarley, if ever, did the bench unit go out without paul or ray.

EDIT: thanks chris, TP.

[papa shuttlesworth]

while i agree with the post, point 2 is a common misconception by celtics fans i wanted to address. I belive this ties in directly with the "ray needs to be more consistant!" crowd, who see ray as a spot up shooter and nothing else. Ray allen is a complete player. he can do it all.

Ray is the third option, and a great shooter. The third option RARLEY gets the ball with enough time on the clock to drive. Also, he's been asked to space the floor.

In the playoffs, doc ran more plays for ray, and allowed him more freedom in the offense. thus, he went back to his normal game of driving as well.

Ray allen is one of the better drivers in the league, he didn't forget how to do it once he left seattle. he adapted to his role and touches in the offense. He just does it less because as the "shooter" 3rd option, he often gets the pass off a pierce drive.

TP for this.  Ray Allen is much more than a spot up shooter.  He often played point guard for George Karl and was even in the dunk contest.  I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised by Ray this year as (hopefully) Doc uses him as more than a glorified Jason Kapono.

Critics constantly talk about Ray Allen's age and how he is teetering on the edge of usefulness.  However, by shifting him to the 3rd option, I think he extended his career by a few years.  Given the amazing shape he is in, I can't see why he can't continue to be productive until he is 38 or so.  That probably wouldn't be the case if he stayed in Milwaukee or Seattle.