At times, hard to stay positive over the off season moves

[bobla]

im looking forward toseeing how all these new pieces fit at the training camp in newport, does anyone know if fans have any access during training camp.

[phantom]

There is a lot in this thread to read, so after a while I had to stop.  But I would like to skip back toa couple of Bill's points from page one.

Now, if Ainge had added a bunch of young, marginal players, I'd be a lot more closely aligned with your viewpoint, but the fact of the matter is that O'Bryant, Miles, Walker, Giddens are all lotter level talents who are being give a chance to make it as bit players on a title team.

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

This title team returns all their rotation players from the regular season sans Posey and Brown. Brown had almost zero impact on the teams ability to dominate all regular season, as the team was well on its way to 60+ wins before he arrived. James Posey's loss will change the way the team plays, but I find it hard to believe the wealth of offensive/defensive talent at the wing will not organically produce a competent-if not superior-replacement.

I think this is the best way of looking at it.  Losing the guys we lost probably wasn't as crucial as everyone is making it out to be, especially give the price of Posey, and I do have some faith in O'Bryant working out.

uhh well this is pointless, I thought I had a little bit more to add 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

[wdleehi]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

O'Bryant is a lotto pick where the team did not pick up the option

Miles is a lotto pick that the doctors have said is physically unable to play. 




This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

[Edgar]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

O'Bryant is a lotto pick where the team did not pick up the option

Miles is a lotto pick that the doctors have said is physically unable to play. 




This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

I will have to disagree
for example
not that Wally didnt helps cleveland a LOT
he still gave us a coule opf hedackes
remember potential equals gamble
and beleive me i know their kind of game is different
I am just NOT throwing the towel on anyone anymore..doc included

[BballTim]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

O'Bryant is a lotto pick where the team did not pick up the option

Miles is a lotto pick that the doctors have said is physically unable to play. 




This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

  Because it would be a shame if we developed some young talent at the expense of marginal backups who are well past their primes...

 

[billysan]

This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

We still have 7 of our top 9 rotation players including all 5 starters from that title team. The young ones from last year are older and will be much better. We added POB to replace Pollard/PJ and still have Powe/Davis. POB will give us more minutes than Pollard. Impovement from Davis and Powe offset the loss of PJ.

The argument can be made that Pollard was never a rotation player and that PJ Brown only was during the playoffs. Neither contributed a significant amount on the floor during the regular season so we are ahead of the game.

We have 3 new talented wings to compete for Posey's minutes and a healthy Tony Allen. All of them have the ability to be excellent team defenders, if only two work out then we still are ahead of the game depth wise arent we? The only thing you have a real case for here is Posey's 3pt shooting IMO.

Doom and gloom all you want, this is still a title team.

[CoachBo]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery little to do with their talent level.picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had

Could not disagree more with this. Paddy was a misspent lottery pick, and anyone who saw him play in college knew that. Miles, I don't know about. But being deemed unable to play isn't encouraging.

Billy Walker I saw a bunch of over a year and a half in college. The bad condition of his legs make calling him a lottery pick erroneous, as does his tendency to blow up emotionally. Giddens has shooting issues, and to a lesser degree character issues. I understand the desire to support Ainge. He had a great summer. Last year. But it's hideously presumptuous to call everyone he's added a lottery pick just because he added them.

Today, we do not have a quality big to back up Perkins and we do not have the shooting or defense off the bench we had last year. This is not a title team, in my opinion, and the original premise I agree with. This has been a depressing, deflating summer after winning the title, one more in line with the Ainge of old. This is a team that will demand increased minutes from the Big Three to meet the demands of a weakened bench, and that will translate into injuries, fatigue, losses and playoff problems. It is the same mistake Red made in the late 1980s - pinching bench pennies.

Next winter, we're going to regret not resigning Posey. Maybe not in four years, but we will in the primes of Garnett, Allen and Pierce.

[wdleehi]

I still think this is a title team.  I just think the bench needs to be better.  But Ainge has time to address that. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery little to do with their talent level.picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had

Could not disagree more with this. Paddy was a misspent lottery pick, and anyone who saw him play in college knew that. Miles, I don't know about. But being deemed unable to play isn't encouraging.

Billy Walker I saw a bunch of over a year and a half in college. The bad condition of his legs make calling him a lottery pick erroneous, as does his tendency to blow up emotionally. Giddens has shooting issues, and to a lesser degree character issues. I understand the desire to support Ainge. He had a great summer. Last year. But it's hideously presumptuous to call everyone he's added a lottery pick just because he added them.

There's nothing to disagree with. The statement in question was about the talent level, not about wether they should've been picked in the lottery or not. The general concensus between scouts and experts have considered Walker and Giddens as lottery level talent. As I mentioned, there were particular circumstances that prevented them from being so.

[Roy Hobbs]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

O'Bryant is a lotto pick where the team did not pick up the option

Miles is a lotto pick that the doctors have said is physically unable to play. 




This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

  Because it would be a shame if we developed some young talent at the expense of marginal backups who are well past their primes...

 

I'm on wdleehi's side.  Young talent is good, and I'm glad to see the rookies here.  However, I'd feel better if we had a few more vets to add to the mix.  I think proven vets who have shown they know how to win are with a lot more than what upside a 26 year old Darius Miles looking at knee replacement brings.

Of course, I think the shot of Miles making the roster is around 2%, meaning we'll be looking to pick up a vet with an open roster spot in the season.  That worked out fairly well last year.  However, I think it's pretty clear that every player added to the bench this off-season has been a complete unknown.  Many of us would feel better with a few sure things.

[CoachBo]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery little to do with their talent level.picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had

Could not disagree more with this. Paddy was a misspent lottery pick, and anyone who saw him play in college knew that. Miles, I don't know about. But being deemed unable to play isn't encouraging.

Billy Walker I saw a bunch of over a year and a half in college. The bad condition of his legs make calling him a lottery pick erroneous, as does his tendency to blow up emotionally. Giddens has shooting issues, and to a lesser degree character issues. I understand the desire to support Ainge. He had a great summer. Last year. But it's hideously presumptuous to call everyone he's added a lottery pick just because he added them.

There's nothing to disagree with. The statement in question was about the talent level, not about wether they should've been picked in the lottery or not. The general concensus between scouts and experts have considered Walker and Giddens as lottery level talent. As I mentioned, there were particular circumstances that prevented them from being so.

Links, please? I need to know who to take less seriously in the future.

[Roy Hobbs]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery little to do with their talent level.picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had

Could not disagree more with this. Paddy was a misspent lottery pick, and anyone who saw him play in college knew that. Miles, I don't know about. But being deemed unable to play isn't encouraging.

Billy Walker I saw a bunch of over a year and a half in college. The bad condition of his legs make calling him a lottery pick erroneous, as does his tendency to blow up emotionally. Giddens has shooting issues, and to a lesser degree character issues. I understand the desire to support Ainge. He had a great summer. Last year. But it's hideously presumptuous to call everyone he's added a lottery pick just because he added them.

There's nothing to disagree with. The statement in question was about the talent level, not about wether they should've been picked in the lottery or not. The general concensus between scouts and experts have considered Walker and Giddens as lottery level talent. As I mentioned, there were particular circumstances that prevented them from being so.

Links, please? I need to know who to take less seriously in the future.

Yeah, this is oft-repeated, but I haven't heard Walker described as a lottery-talent since his first knee injury (there have been, what, three now?) and I don't think Giddens has been projected at that level since he transferred to the Lobos.  Walker lost some of his athleticism (much of the reason he was projected so highly was because people thought he had the hops of Vince Carter; he doesn't have those any more), and Giddens showed that he wasn't as good as he looked coming out of high-school.  As much as it gets repeated, the reason Giddens didn't get drafted isn't because of character; players with character concerns get drafted every year (Sean Williams, for instance).  Rather, it was those character concerns combined with scouts not being as high on his upside any more.  Keep in mind, the kid is going to be 24 next season, and never dominated college.  *That's* why he slipped (and was projected to slip a lot farther if not drafted by Danny).

Just because a player was once highly-regarded or hyped doesn't mean he has a tremendous amount of talent.  NBA scouts miss all the time, which is why some of those same scouts had Gerald Green as a top-three pick at one time. 

I like Danny, and I hope the draft picks work out.  On paper, they certainly seem to have near-elite athleticism.  That does not, however, make them "lottery picks", and it doesn't make them sure things, either.

[nickagneta]

Just responding to some of what has been said here. First, I want to address the fact that I was being too negative. I still think as presently constructured this team is going deep into the playoffs and probably to the Finals. They might even be able to win it all but they would need luck and for this team to go injury free within the top 8 players for it to happen.

But I don't think I am being too negative about specifically the offseason moves made this off season. I just see no upgrade at any position where there was change. Posey is way better than Walker and Miles. Brown is, for all reports and from looking at the stats, world's better than POB. For all his flaws, I know what to expect from Sam Cassell and haven't a clue what to expect from Giddens. This is about the only place where there might be some question as to whether we would be better off with the new guy over Cassell.

This is a team with a limited number of years to contend if there aren't young upgrades and stars developed. I understand that. What I don't understand is trying to develop four of these guys all at the same time. Couldn't the rookies been a good place to start and then bring in guys like Ratliff and/or Matt Barnes and/or Mickael Pietrus and/or Bonzi Wells or just people with known and proven games for the other areas. If the rooks were to work out then next year start with another rook.

But 2 reclamation projects(Miles and POB), 2 rookies drafted deep in the draft, and the return of an overweight rookie with potential, the return of another rookie that showed little at the NBA level, and the return of a wing player that has been okay but in for years of owning his rights only showed one month of ball that was all that good. 7 unknowns out of 1 15 man championship defending roster.

I am sorry but Danny just didn't do a very good job this off seasson. He might get incredibily lucky and have it all pan out and find two or three solid players out of that group. He would then be hailed a genius and I would have egg on my face and be the happiest, crow eating dude in the world. He might strike out completely and cost this team a title for being so foolish as to believe that these youngsters and unprovens could make up the bench of a returning champion and that that champion would have any chance of repreating.

Of course, the whole point could be moot as Miles may not even make the team, the Celtics could buy out a player or two and suddenly Danny could be adding good veteran help for the playoff run.

Either way I'm stoked about the upcoming season and can't help but think that with increased time playing together, better chemistry, better integration of Ray Allen into the offense, and the improvement that playoff and championship experience will mean to Rondo, Perk, Powe and maybe Baby if he can get into better shape will make this team hard to beat during the regular season and that they will once again be contending for another championship.

[BballTim]

Isn't THIS a little bit presumptuous?  Why assume Giddens and Walker are are better than 15 of the 30 or so players drafted before them, just because Ainge was the one that drafted them?  Are the other teams just so thick that they didn't think to draft these guys themselves?

Not saying these guys are going to be busts, I have faith that the team *might* have made some savvy picks here (of course they could have done better, but most teams could as well)...  And it's not like I'm against rooting for/hyping up your home team guys..  But if they were lottery players, they would have atleast gone early 20s, right?  What if these guys are the the 30th and 47th best players in the 08 draft, should I be riled up for that?

O'bryant and Miles were lottery picks. Experts have all said that Giddens and Walker would've been lottery picks had it not been for some particular circumstances like "attitude problems" and injury concerns. They had little to do with their talent level.

O'Bryant is a lotto pick where the team did not pick up the option

Miles is a lotto pick that the doctors have said is physically unable to play. 




This is a bench of potential.  Therefore, a good fit for a rebuilding team, not a title team. 

  Because it would be a shame if we developed some young talent at the expense of marginal backups who are well past their primes...

 

I'm on wdleehi's side.  Young talent is good, and I'm glad to see the rookies here.  However, I'd feel better if we had a few more vets to add to the mix.  I think proven vets who have shown they know how to win are with a lot more than what upside a 26 year old Darius Miles looking at knee replacement brings.

Of course, I think the shot of Miles making the roster is around 2%, meaning we'll be looking to pick up a vet with an open roster spot in the season.  That worked out fairly well last year.  However, I think it's pretty clear that every player added to the bench this off-season has been a complete unknown.  Many of us would feel better with a few sure things.

  The only player of value that we lost was Posey. Frankly I don't see the excitement about PJ, who didn't play that well last year and would be hard-pressed to approach that level a year from now. And, while the players we got are unknown, I'm not subscribing to the theory that none of them will be ready to contribute anything by May or that they'll all be on the roster if that is the case.