"too many question marks" ???

[BudweiserCeltic]

Short memory have we?

Eh...  I think you're operating with a healthy dose of revisionist history, yourself.  To somehow suggest that Posey wasn't expected to contribute in a big way is, just, well...  wrong. That signing was greeted with universal enthusiasm on here because it was seen as the move that gave us a true bench.

I have been quite accurate in my assesment of the sentiments and question marks we had of our team entering the season. Never said that the signing wasn't greeted with universal enthusiasm, but the level of his contribution was much more than any of us expected. But sure, let's cross him our our list.

The House signing wasn't panned, from what I remember, and also was actually met with some enthusiasm.  It wasn't really until the Detroit game that the "we need a veteran ball-handler" cries became loud.

This is quite inaccurate. House as our main back-up PG was a huge question mark entering the season, and through the season. The doubt became exponentially bigger with the tought of having to count Rondo as our main PG during the playoffs.
 

I don't remember anywhere near the same concerns with Ray that you seem to.  Once we got the "big three", I don't remember a lot of talk about injury concerns.  Age, maybe, but not injury (and we have those same age concerns this season).

 
How can you not remember any concerns about his injury history? Of course there were. He had just come off double-ankle surgery or something along those lines. Come on now.

There was some question about whether Perk or Rondo was ready, but I think most people were confident in both of them.  In fact, each player pretty much contributed what was expected:  an up-and-down season full of great moments and silly mistakes.

That's just wrong. Most people were NOT confident in Rondo to start the season, especially as our starter. Do any of us remember the long debates we had with MikeDfromNP? Perk up to last year had quite an underwhelming career, and he was about to become our starting center in our most important season in quite some time. How can he had not been a question mark, especially with his injury history?

House, Rondo, Big Baby, Pruitt, Powe, Perk, Pollard, Scal, and our last two roster spots (PJ and Cassell) were legitimate concerns, and more importantly our chemistry and defense. Hey, how about Doc... that was a HUGE concern last season. I don't think there's much of a concern this season with him, though there are certainly still doubters around.

Let me just say this... I had little doubts about the team myself entering the season last year. But just because I felt confident with the team doesn't mean that the question marks and doubts around us fans weren't there. For example, I liked Pollard as our back-up center... I liked House and Rondo as our two PG's, but that was certainly not the sentiment entering the season among most of the community.

Let me make a little compromise here. We have more unknowns this year than we had last year, that's certainly true... but to me uknowns and question marks are two completely different things.

For example, we don't know much about Pruitt, Giddens, Walker, O'bryant, and about this current Miles. We had few players last season that we didn't know the skill level and capabilities of in the proffesional stage.

The other side of it, is that we only need ONE at most TWO of those guys to be somewhat decent for us next season, and that's assuming that all of them make the roster.

[Fan from VT]

I think that with the salary cap, every team will always have questions. No team is a lock to win a title; the days of  a guys like Walton coming off the bench while still close to his prime because you were starting Bird, McHale, Parish in their primes are gone.

Take a look:
Dallas:
-Is Howard on the decline, based upon his legal issues and his poor playoff performance? Will he bounce back?
-Just how bad is Jason Kidd? How much worse will he be this year than last?
-Some of these players will get significant playing time (spots 6-10 will come from this group): Diop, Stackhouse, Singleton, Antoine Wright, Devean George, Brandon Bass, Gerald Green, Eddie Jones, McLeod.

Detroit:
-Aren't they only an older version of the squad that consistently falls short?
-Dumars has publicly questioned his own roster, promising changes, but nothing has happened yet.
-Except for Prince, their starters are 30, 31, 33, 33; decline is inevitable.
-Despite directives from management to play youth, and coaches getting fired for not playing youth, coaches have still avoided giving significant playing time to young Detroit players. Is there something wrong with them that only  these coaches recognize? Sounds like question marks to me. They're banking on contributions from late first round to second round talent. Sound like familiar questions?
-Kwame Brown?

Houston:
-Is Rafer Alston really a championship point guard? He's not a great pure shooter/good defender like Fisher, and he's not a game changing slasher like Parker, or a super athlete like Rondo.
-Health. How many games will Ming and McGrady miss? Landry' knee?
-Artest: definition of question mark.
-Battier: will his offensive ineptitude continue?
-Speaking of Alston, who on the roster is a proven backup point?
-The lingering playoff issues for McGrady weigh stronger each passing postseason.

Lakers:
-How long can Fisher keep it up?
-Which is the real Farmar? The regular season one or the one that stunk it up when it counted?
-Bynum's health: he was optimistically supposed to be back for the playoffs. Didn't even come close to happening, what was wrong? His dedication has always been in question; does he have what it takes to overcome injury AND get over the hump from potential to sustained production?
-Odom? Do they move him? How does he fit? Does he continue to fold under pressure?
-From where will they get any toughness, especially with Turiaf gone?
-Can Kobe keep it together for a full season? He was Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing until the trade deadline. He's seen his teammates fold once again, and he reverted to his selfish ways in the finals. Can he really play "good teammate" for a full season AND playoffs?

New Orleans:
-So behind Chandler they rely upon Hilton Armstrong? Or David West (considered a small PF?)
-Which Peja, the one who played 77 games or the one who played 13?
-With Peja's concerns, is Posey really ready to go from bench role player to an expanded role and possible part time starter?
-Bench? They've got a few question marks there, too. Is Mo Peterson going to start for a champion? Rasual Butler?
-Will Byron Scott trust the young Wright?

Phoenix:
-Will Bell continue to decline?
-Nash's health? He's been on borrowed time for a few seasons, and they still have no backup (they're the only ones who believe in Dragic; everyone else is scratching their heads over what they could possibly see in him.
-Will Diaw continue to show up out of shape and disappoint?
-O'neal is a huge (literally!) question mark at this point. Health is a major question mark, and his production continues to decline with age.

Orlando:
-Major depth questions. They're really starting Rashard Lewis at PF? And who backs him up? They're counting on Battie that much?
-Was that the real Turkoglu or a fluke?
-At 26 and with 4 seasons, does Nelson have room to improve? If not, if this is who he is, he's not exactly a fear-inducing point guard.
-Again, take a look at how thin the bench is. Can they weather a single injury? Can Howard withstand the grind of being the only interior defender and rebounder?

Toronto:
-Better hope Bargnani makes some serious improvement to his game.
-Kapono's a championship starter?
-Can O'neal return to form?
-Can Calderon carry the starting load 82 games? If he can't, who's the backup? How'll Ukic be?
-Who exactly is playing shooting guard and small forward for 96 total minutes per game? Kapono and Joey Graham? Hassan Adams?

San Antonio:
-Age concerns?
-Bench energy?
-Can Bowen's slipping defense continue to make up for his offensive ineptitude?
-Ginobili's health?
-How long can Duncan continue?
-Udoka and Mahinmi? Who knows?
-Kurt Thomas, Horry, Finley...further decline inevitable.

Utah:
-Defense? Didn't play much last year. Major major question mark.
-Catch 22: need Korver's shooting, but need Brewer's Defense from the shooting guard spot.
-Kirilenko continues his disappointment at small forward?

Philadelphia:
-Were they that good last year or was that false hope?
-Can anyone hit a three?
-Is Brand going to fully recover? How good is he these days?
-Is Andre Miller going to behave? He's negotiating for his offseason with no agent, and has been unhappy in Philly for a while.
-Is Thadeus Young ready to contribute full time?
-How much are they banking on Ratliff?


Major question marks for everyone. In fact, I'd say the LA is in the best shape with Boston right there. No team is going to be invincible or 100% certain anymore.

[Who]

I agree that the Celtics had more question marks last season. They were also more important question marks as they concerned 40% of the starting lineup, the Head Coach, and the majority of the bench.

I also think that the Celtics have an unnecessary large number of question mark players heading into this season. There was no reason for this club, the Defending Champs, to be facing this degree of uncertainty and to take this large a risk with one of the best remaining chances the core of this team has to win another title.

[Fan from VT]

Roy-
I read everything you post, and usually I agree, but this time I can't. Not everyone, certainly, but many many fans and pundits had the concerns that BudweiserCelts listed. There were major questions about Rondo and Perk...and they were starters!!! This year's question marks all affect our bench.

There were major questions about Ray's effectiveness coming off his surgery and adjusting to a new role. And many people were questioning whether our offensive potency would be enough to counterbalance the assumed lack of defense from Ray and Pierce...both were seen as minuses defensively. Look not just at how many question marks there are, but WHERE they are:

'07:
Rondo: In only his second year, is he ready?
Ray: Recovered from surgery? Ready for new role? Defense? Age?
Pierce: Defense? Attitude?
KG: Playing under Pressure? Playoff experience?
Perk: Is he any good?
6th: Posey. Decently regarded as 6th man. Questions about motivation.
7th: House. lots of people railing about the "shooting guard in point guard's body" thing.
8th: Powe. Undersized. Defense? Any offensive game either?
9th: Tony. Knee? Point guard? Really?

'08:
All the questions above have been answered for the starters. That's huge, that's the vast majority of our team's minutes. Age will be a question, as will Perk's health. But now the major questions are about our 9-12 guys, really. That's much better.

Just because a lot of last year's questions were answered positively doesn't mean the questions weren't there. There were probably more questions last year than this year. It may still be true that more of this year's questions will be answered negatively than last year, but last year we won the title. Best case scenario we duplicate last season; that's really hard to do.

[BballTim]

Short memory have we?

Eh...  I think you're operating with a healthy dose of revisionist history, yourself.  To somehow suggest that Posey wasn't expected to contribute in a big way is, just, well...  wrong.  That signing was greeted with universal enthusiasm on here because it was seen as the move that gave us a true bench.  The House signing wasn't panned, from what I remember, and also was actually met with some enthusiasm.  It wasn't really until the Detroit game that the "we need a veteran ball-handler" cries became loud. 

I don't remember anywhere near the same concerns with Ray that you seem to.  Once we got the "big three", I don't remember a lot of talk about injury concerns.  Age, maybe, but not injury (and we have those same age concerns this season).  There was some question about whether Perk or Rondo was ready, but I think most people were confident in both of them.  In fact, each player pretty much contributed what was expected:  an up-and-down season full of great moments and silly mistakes.

  I think you're glossing over a lot. There were loads of posts about Perk's shortcomings. Rondo was seen as a huge question mark. In fact, when we were waiting for Cassell to be bought out the board was split about which of the two would get the most minutes in the playoffs (the crunch time minutes were pretty much ceded to Sam). People declared that the team would never win in the playoffs with Doc as a coach. Most of the better predictions had the team as 3rd or 4th best in the conference and maybe challenging for the ECF. There were probably more predictions that we'd be a 6-8 that seed than a title contender. And Ainge was ripped for trading for RA, yet another hobbled player, although most of that was before the KG trade.

[Fan from VT]

I agree that the Celtics had more question marks last season. They were also more important question marks as they concerned 40% of the starting lineup, the Head Coach, and the majority of the bench.

I also think that the Celtics have an unnecessary large number of question mark players heading into this season. There was no reason for this club, the Defending Champs, to be facing this degree of uncertainty and to take this large a risk with one of the best remaining chances the core of this team has to win another title.

This I think is true,  Who. Fewer questions overall, but too many unnecessary ones.

The salary cap has changed the game in ways fans are not ready to accept and I believe GMs are still figuring out. Look at the travesty that is Phoenix: They were a team of 62-20 with Nash, Joe Johnson, Quentin, Marion, Amare and Barbosa. However, just before that season they knew they were in money trouble, so they gave awya their draft pick (Deng or Iguodala!). Because they were battling the cap limits, they then traded Nate Robinson away draft day (they are still trying to fill backup point several seasons later), traded high on Q for Kurt Thomas, and Traded high on Joe Johnson for Diaw and 2 good firsts. All made sense cap wise, but really losing Johnson and Robinson hurt basketball wise. Then their trouble really starts. 2006 they gave away Rondo and Sergio Rodriquez to save money, money they then used to sign marcus banks (those veterans sure are more valuable than rooks, huh?). They gave away Rudy Fernandez to save money. They dumped Kurt Thomas with first rounders to save money.

The moral is even supposedly talented, well-run teams like Phoenix are still figuring out talent-cap relationships.

All of that is a long way of saying that I agree with Who that we have too many unnecessary question marks. I understand not keeping Posey at the price it would have demanded because of cap issues these days. I would hate to pull a Phoenix and just give picks away in '12 in order to avoid the tax just because Posey's making 7-8 million then. That's what a GM has to think about. But though I understand about Posey, I agree there were more "sure things" we could have had.

-I know he's underacheived, but Kwame Brown would have been more of a sure thing than O'bryant.
-What about Kirk Snyder at wing? He's still a free agent. More reliable than Darius, certainly.

I will say this, that athleticism was missing a bit last season, and some of that may be addressed now. It's easier for young, athletic players to succeed on a good, well-run team where they only need to worry about specific things. My hope is that this is what happens with our question marks this year.

[gar]

you stole my monday article idea!

well, I'll probably still write it and steal material from this thread 

Sorry, lots of good material however! Seem to be some universals - like how would our summers have any meaning if we could not ask questions?

I totally forgot about all the can Doc win questions. TTibbs certainly made a difference in many peoples outlook there.

There have also been some posts about the fascination with youth and potential. As someone who has been following since the 80's, I have to say that youth may not win championships; but neither do stale rosters lacking athleticism. We all know that Danny loves athletes. From what little I have been able to see of the "prospects" (Miles included), this may be the most athletic team the celtics have put on the floor in a while. Posey was showing his age to a degree that the big three were not. For this reason I am not so concerned about the loss. I still think we have a problem if D Miles does not work out; but all in all would rather have the kind of questions that we now have vs. the Telfair / G$ questions of a few years ago. As much as I love Gomes, we had him playing PF - talk about

[jaketwice]

you stole my monday article idea!

well, I'll probably still write it and steal material from this thread 

Sorry, lots of good material however! Seem to be some universals - like how would our summers have any meaning if we could not ask questions?

I totally forgot about all the can Doc win questions. TTibbs certainly made a difference in many peoples outlook there.

There have also been some posts about the fascination with youth and potential. As someone who has been following since the 80's, I have to say that youth may not win championships; but neither do stale rosters lacking athleticism. We all know that Danny loves athletes. From what little I have been able to see of the "prospects" (Miles included), this may be the most athletic team the celtics have put on the floor in a while. Posey was showing his age to a degree that the big three were not. For this reason I am not so concerned about the loss. I still think we have a problem if D Miles does not work out; but all in all would rather have the kind of questions that we now have vs. the Telfair / G$ questions of a few years ago. As much as I love Gomes, we had him playing PF - talk about

I think the questions can all be summarized by asking whether Pierce, Allen, Garnett, and the coaching staff have what it takes to deal with so many young players, all of whom to a degree will need some attention.

Perk, P.O.B, Baby, Leon: they ALL could benefit from time with Clifford Ray.

Rondo clearly benefited from shooting with Ray Allen last year.  Wouldn't Walker, Giddens, and TA also all benefit?

Would Miles be able to handle KG's intensity?

In my opinion, the vets have a deserved swagger coming into the season, which should make it easier for them to lavish some attention on the youngsters.

In another thread, someone was talking about how boring it was to discuss a winning season - all of this youth is at least exciting!

[Mr October]

I agree with the majority. last year there were a lot more question marks.

This year we know what we're going to get from the starters and the following bench players: House, Powe, Davis, Scalabrine, and even TA. I fully expect all of these guys to be what they were last year. Davis and TA are on the hot seat though. They need to improve themselves so that they are locks in the rotation. If not, it is time to part ways.

When I read the subject line, i interpreted it as "too many question mark players".

These guys are absolutely question marks, since all but Miles are in the prospects category. I think O'Byrant is the only lock to be on the roster at this time next year (7 footers with his raw skills don't grow on trees). The rest could be cut if the right vet is available later on. (Good Mourning in March) 

Patrick O'Bryant
Darius Miles
Gabe Pruitt
JR Giddens
Bill Walker

I really, really like the athletic potential of the prospects. By the end of the season it is very possible they will be hummin' up and down the court catching alley-oops from Rondo.

I'm so ready for October.

[gar]

Great seeing videos of Rondo in college running with Kelenna Azubuike. He will have fun with Dmiles, Giddens and Walker on the wings.

[CoachBo]

Short memory have we?

Eh...  I think you're operating with a healthy dose of revisionist history, yourself.  To somehow suggest that Posey wasn't expected to contribute in a big way is, just, well...  wrong.  That signing was greeted with universal enthusiasm on here because it was seen as the move that gave us a true bench.  The House signing wasn't panned, from what I remember, and also was actually met with some enthusiasm.  It wasn't really until the Detroit game that the "we need a veteran ball-handler" cries became loud. 

I don't remember anywhere near the same concerns with Ray that you seem to.  Once we got the "big three", I don't remember a lot of talk about injury concerns.  Age, maybe, but not injury (and we have those same age concerns this season).  There was some question about whether Perk or Rondo was ready, but I think most people were confident in both of them.  In fact, each player pretty much contributed what was expected:  an up-and-down season full of great moments and silly mistakes.

Anyway, even to the extent that last year's roster had question marks, I just don't see the players being in the same category.  Rondo, Perk, Posey, and Ray had all proven themselves to some extent or another coming into last season.  P.O.B., Miles, Pruitt, and the rookies have yet to show anything.

You're right, Roy. What I see in this thread is a lot of "we'll be OK because I say we will," not a lot of evidence to back it. I mean, calling O'Bryant a true lottery pick is ridiculous. He's a guy who was dominated in college, became the subject of a flyer in the pros and was dumped because he brought his one consistency - laziness - into the NBA.

There are WAY too many people on this roster who've done nothing in this league. I'll say it again: We cannot win a title with this bench as it's constituted, because the Dollar Store shopping won't work out in quantity enough to provide the minutes to spell three stars who need - and as last year showed, profit - from monitored minutes.

[hankfinkel]

Not all question marks are created equal: question marks about your starters are vastly more important than questions about your 6-10 guys, and questions marks about your 11-15 guys are barely blips of the radar in termns of calculating success.  You have to weight these questions by importance to really evaluate how critical these questions are.

In that vein, to me, it is no contest, the amount of uncertainty and questions last summer far outweigh what we see now.  The trio of stars can play together well, Rondo even with some of his flaws is a very good NBA point guard, Perkins is a good defensive starting center: all open questions last year, any of which had they not worked out well could have hurt this team substantially.  House can adequately be the back-up point in the regular season and was the point guard off the bench in the Finals, and that was an unknown last year.  Powe improved and has answered the question as to whether he is a capable rotation guy on a contending team (rather than a second round flash-in-the-pan on a bad team which many people had cast him as).  So for the top 8 guys on this team, you have to feel as good or better than you did last year about 7 of the 8, and most importantly in terms of chemistry among those guys, you have evidence it works.

The only critical question now (at least above the existing ones from last summer) is whether some combination of Tony Allen, Miles, Walker and Giddens (and perhaps some creative use of House at the 2 and maybe Big Baby at the 3) can adequately replace Posey.  It's an important question, no doubt, but far less important than whether the three stars can play together well or Rondo can handle the point guard duties - the 2 major questions that would dictate the success of the team before the season last year.

At the 9 slot: Pollard was about a big a question mark as the only true back-up center as POB is this year, for different reasons.  If for the moment we slot Tony Allen as Posey's replacement as the sixth man this year, well after that we have Big Baby as a more know and positive quantity than last summer, Scal is still Scal, Pruitt is probably a push.  Then there is Miles, Giddens, and Walker versus a coming-off injury Tony Allen and two open slots.

By my count, there is one question that is a bigger unknown than last year: who is this team's sixth man?  But there are a lot of questions that have been answered, and unless we start really reaching for things like "Will Rondo regress" and "Will age suddenly catch up to the big three" there are really far fewer concerns than last year.

[gar]

We may not like the fact that we are cap strapped at the moment; but the fact is that you can follow Ainge's reasoning every step of the way. He is leaving flexibility for next year and making do with what is available. Everyone who we might have wanted went somewhere for bigger money. Yes it would have been nice if Denver had given us Camby, but that was not happening. The logic goes something like this.

Draft: Get a big, TA/E House insurance and JPosey insurance

- JR Giddens = TA insurance
- Erden = future Big
- Walker = JPosey insurance

Mission accomplished - POB is more ready to contribute than any of the bigs in the draft at the C's draft position. Perhaps you could argue that CDRoberts or Chalmers would have been better picks. D Miles offers size and experience at SF, Gary Forbes might have provided some insurance if Walker does not work out however both are under 6'-8" and both lack experience.

Besides those brandon wallace lovers may be in look if D miles does not workout.