What's the worst Celtics trade or Free Agent signing ever & why?

[D Dub]

02/20/02: TRADE: The Celtics traded Joe Johnson, Milt Palacio, Randy Brown and a conditional 1st round pick to Phoenix for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. The Pick is reportedly top-8 protected for 2002 and top-5 protected from 2003-2007

anybody know who the pick turned out to be?

This one isn't too bad, Rodney was a big reason why we got to the ECF that year.  Him and Pierce were unstopable on the pick and pop...

Also, say what you want about Joe Johnson, but at the end of the day he is that type of star player who is only good enough to keep your team stuck in mediocroty.  A max contract player who gets you first round exits and bad draft picks - that is GM no-mans land.

[Mean Gerald Green]

02/20/02: TRADE: The Celtics traded Joe Johnson, Milt Palacio, Randy Brown and a conditional 1st round pick to Phoenix for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. The Pick is reportedly top-8 protected for 2002 and top-5 protected from 2003-2007

anybody know who the pick turned out to be?

This one isn't too bad, Rodney was a big reason why we got to the ECF that year.  Him and Pierce were unstopable on the pick and pop...

Also, say what you want about Joe Johnson, but at the end of the day he is that type of star player who is only good enough to keep your team stuck in mediocroty.  A max contract player who gets you first round exits and bad draft picks - that is GM no-mans land.

It would have been a good trade if we won the championship, or maybe even went to the finals...but they didn't. So the trade is a huge loss.

Joe Johnson might be a start player who gets you first round exits and bad draft picks as you say...but if the Celtics held onto him longer his value would have been much higher than a quick rental of Rogers and Delk.

[elrod enchilada]

tripleOT--

Based on your moniker I suspect you saw the Cs of the 70s play, and saw Westphal play as well. Even in Scott's one full good year with the Cs, he was not as good as Westphal was for Phoenix that season. In the 76 playoffs Westphal clearly outplayed Scott. Thsi is not a rap on Scott, but prioasie for Westphal. There is no reason on earth to believe the Cs would have not won the title had they had Westphal as their starting 2 guard. But we know for certain Phoeniox would not have gotten into the playoffs, let alone the finals, without Westphal.

After 1976, for the next 4 years, Westphal was first-team all NBA 3 times and second team all;-NBA once. The year he was secodn team he finished 6th in MVP voting, unusual for a guard. He was magnificent.

I am delighted Red parlayed Charlie Scott into something better, but if Red had held onto Westphal he would have had something vastly greater than what he eventually got.

Did you see Westphal play for Phoenix in the late 70s? I lived in Seattle then and covered NBA basketball for UPI. He was simply extraordinary. For a refresher, read David Halberstam's discussion of Westphal on Breaks of the Game.

Red traded away a guy who dominated for four or five years and in return got a guy who was not as good for a season and a half. OK, Red was able to get something using him as part of larger trades. Well if Red could get something good for Scott, imagine what Red could have gotten for Westphal in 1979 or 1980! Phoenix traded Westphal for a 25 year old Dennis Johnson in 1980.

[SShoreFan 2.0]

Sentimentally speaking -- I hated the Danny Ainge for Pickney and Kleine trade.

It signaled the end of an era, traded one of my favorite players and the team didn't improve from it, while Ainge went onto two more NBA finals.

[Chris]

02/20/02: TRADE: The Celtics traded Joe Johnson, Milt Palacio, Randy Brown and a conditional 1st round pick to Phoenix for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. The Pick is reportedly top-8 protected for 2002 and top-5 protected from 2003-2007

anybody know who the pick turned out to be?

This one isn't too bad, Rodney was a big reason why we got to the ECF that year.  Him and Pierce were unstopable on the pick and pop...

Also, say what you want about Joe Johnson, but at the end of the day he is that type of star player who is only good enough to keep your team stuck in mediocroty.  A max contract player who gets you first round exits and bad draft picks - that is GM no-mans land.

I agree that this trade should not be on this list.  Although I think Joe Johnson is a hell of a player, I cannot fault a team for making a trade that was crucial in getting them to the ECF.  I don't think they make it past the first round without that trade.  Obviously it was very costly in the longrun, but it was worth it for them to make the run they did.

[KungPoweChicken]

In the Denver trade in 1999, we got to choose which year we wanted denver's first round pick from 01-04. We used it the first year possible: 2001, #11, Kedrick Brown. Had we waited, it would have been #5 in 02 (Caron Butler, Amare Stoudemire). waited one more year? we would have had #3 in 2003. oh, just 'melo, wade, bosh.

The intitial decision to take the pick when they did wasn't that bad at the time, it was more who they took that was a bad decision.  Of course, looking back they should've definitely held onto the pick, but the Nuggets went from 14 wins (lockout year) to 35 in 2000 and 40 in 2001.  With Antonio McDyess as one of the best young stars in the game having not even reached his prime yet, along with Nick Vane Exel in his prime and a solid nucleus of other players, it was reasonable to think that the pick would not get much better in the future.

But what ended up happening was McDyess got injured the following season and only played 10 games, and they then blew up the team and traded away Van Exel and LaFrentz.

I think this was a terrible mistake by the Celtics. Everything is always 20/20 in hindsight, but the fact that we could of had #5 or #3 is too much to over look. This is especially true since in those years the drafts were potent.

Like everyone else I agree that the Baker signing was atrocious.

On a side note, how much per year did Vitaly P earn?

[johnnyrondo]

This is up there:

Celtics Sign Knight at Center

Free-agent center Travis Knight reportedly signs seven-year, $22 million contract with Boston Celtics

I'm still cringing...

Wasn't that bad. Pitino was quickly able to trade Knight to the Lakers for a young Tony Battie.

[pearljammer10]

Raef LaFrenz anyone?

[TripleOT]

tripleOT--

Based on your moniker I suspect you saw the Cs of the 70s play, and saw Westphal play as well. Even in Scott's one full good year with the Cs, he was not as good as Westphal was for Phoenix that season. In the 76 playoffs Westphal clearly outplayed Scott. Thsi is not a rap on Scott, but prioasie for Westphal. There is no reason on earth to believe the Cs would have not won the title had they had Westphal as their starting 2 guard. But we know for certain Phoeniox would not have gotten into the playoffs, let alone the finals, without Westphal.

After 1976, for the next 4 years, Westphal was first-team all NBA 3 times and second team all;-NBA once. The year he was secodn team he finished 6th in MVP voting, unusual for a guard. He was magnificent.

I am delighted Red parlayed Charlie Scott into something better, but if Red had held onto Westphal he would have had something vastly greater than what he eventually got.

Did you see Westphal play for Phoenix in the late 70s? I lived in Seattle then and covered NBA basketball for UPI. He was simply extraordinary. For a refresher, read David Halberstam's discussion of Westphal on Breaks of the Game.

Red traded away a guy who dominated for four or five years and in return got a guy who was not as good for a season and a half. OK, Red was able to get something using him as part of larger trades. Well if Red could get something good for Scott, imagine what Red could have gotten for Westphal in 1979 or 1980! Phoenix traded Westphal for a 25 year old Dennis Johnson in 1980.

FYI, I read Breaks of the Game when it was first published, but thanks for the "refresher" tip. I watched Westphal a lot back then.  He was a very good scorer, but Red made that trade because he wanted a veteran presence in his backcourt.  Westphal had a big year in Phoenix the year the two team met in their epic Finals, but the Cs won the title.  As far as him outplaying Scott that year in the Finals, the Cs were set up to play team ball (four players averaging between 19 and 17 points), while the Suns were the type of team where Westphal and Alvin Adams were big scorers, with other in supporting roles. 

Scott put up similar scoring numbers out in Phoenix previous to the trade (although Westphal was a more efficient scorer) and overall Scott was probably a better player for his career (he was a tremendous scorer in the freewheeling ABA). 

Yes Westphal put up some great numbers, but Red made that move for one reason -  to win the title that year, and it worked out.  Westphal's "domination" led to an average of 46 wins in Phoenix, only one trip to the Finals, and no title, of course.  Yes, the Cs would have been a better team the next couple of years with him, but in that title season, Scott got the job done.  I don't recall what led up to the in season trade of Scott the next year. Maybe you can enlighten me, considering your vast NBA knowledge. 

[elrod enchilada]

Thanks, TripleOT, for the compliment, though your knowledge certainly equals or exceeds my own.

Not sure why Red traded Scott in his second year. But Red sure knew what he was doing: Scott's game went due south thereafter.

That period from 1976-79 was one of upheaval in the NBA, and the Cs were at the center of it. It seems like Red made a ton of deals. Besides lamenting the Westphal trade (where we can agree to disagree), that the Cs had moron owners really limited Red's options. Red was able to buy Sidney Wicks, but if he has a good owner there were players like Julius Erving and Mose Malone avaliable.

But we got Larry so the 80s was dreamlike anyway. Not a big deal.

Now Len Bias and Reggie Lewis...that is lamentable.

[acieEarl]

This is up there:

Celtics Sign Knight at Center

Free-agent center Travis Knight reportedly signs seven-year, $22 million contract with Boston Celtics

I'm still cringing...

Wasn't that bad. Pitino was quickly able to trade Knight to the Lakers for a young Tony Battie.

The initial signing of Knight for that 7 year contract was terrible. I didn't mind that they signed Knight but never could figure out why they gave him 7 years. He was a border line NBA player. 3 years may have been to many years.

Getting Battie in a trade for Knight was no doubt a steal on the Celts end.

[Emmette Bryant]

If I remember right, Tommy claimed in his autobiography that the reason that the Celtics traded Westphal and Silas was due to screw ups in their contracts. 

[bossportsfan34]

The Baker deal was the worst trade hands down. Not only did you get a max contract for someone who already had whispers around the league of his issues, but Anderson's contract was an expiring deal that year for $9M. You could've either let it come off the books or use it in a deadline trade.

As for FA signings, it's Scal IMHO. You gave a guy a 5 year deal using half the MLE for someone who should've only got a vet minimum 1 year contract.

As for it being mentioned earlier in the thread about not holding on to the Denver #1 from the Mercer trade, it wasn't the issue of holding onto it longer it was using it to take Kedrick.

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/2001.html

Look at all the players taken after him that were available. To say they should've held onto it longer (despite coming off a 40-win season and pre-McDyess knee injury) is very Simmons-ish.

[tyrone biggums]

How is this a legitimate thread and Vin Baker isn't the consensus here? Hell they were selling Vin Baker is an alcoholic shirts on Causeway St. after C's games when he was suspended.   

[EJPLAYA]

The Baker deal was the worst trade hands down. Not only did you get a max contract for someone who already had whispers around the league of his issues, but Anderson's contract was an expiring deal that year for $9M. You could've either let it come off the books or use it in a deadline trade.

As for FA signings, it's Scal IMHO. You gave a guy a 5 year deal using half the MLE for someone who should've only got a vet minimum 1 year contract.

As for it being mentioned earlier in the thread about not holding on to the Denver #1 from the Mercer trade, it wasn't the issue of holding onto it longer it was using it to take Kedrick.

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/2001.html

Look at all the players taken after him that were available. To say they should've held onto it longer (despite coming off a 40-win season and pre-McDyess knee injury) is very Simmons-ish.

Without a doubt Vin was the worst Trade, but as far as free agent signings Travis Knight was so far past Scal as a bad signing it isn't even funny. That guy was absolutely garbage, and to give him the kind of long term deal at the kind of money he got made Scal's contract look like a steal. You can't objectively say that this wasn't worse than Scal.