Investigation launched into death of Celtics fan

[TripleOT]

Here's another story of police ganging up on a "suspect" which resulted in a suspect's death, this time a mentally challenged man in neighboring Rhode Island:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/WWARWICK_DEATH_30_06-30-08_N8AMPO1_v157.411489a.html

One has nothing to do with the other.

They are both examples of a bunch of police officers bum rushing a "suspect" and the "suspect" subsequently dying.  I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out. 

[DinoRadjaLives]

This whole topic is a sensitive for most. The facts are that a family lost a son, brother, nephew, etc, and that there is a cop out there that was just trying to do his/her job. You can see it from both angles,

A - Kid - How many of us haven't done something stupid when in the 18-22 range ? Drinking, partying and then ran from cops. Yet we are all more less good people.

B - Cop - Guy is out the night of riots and sees a kid with an open container, they try to stop him and the kid runs, he chases kid wrestles him to the ground (mind you if I am a cop and a kid runs, its for a reason), kid goes into cardiac arrest.

So the thing here is no one wins, of course we all have opinions and thoughts, but in the end no one won.

[Roy Hobbs]

Here's another story of police ganging up on a "suspect" which resulted in a suspect's death, this time a mentally challenged man in neighboring Rhode Island:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/WWARWICK_DEATH_30_06-30-08_N8AMPO1_v157.411489a.html

One has nothing to do with the other.

They are both examples of a bunch of police officers bum rushing a "suspect" and the "suspect" subsequently dying.  I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out. 

So?  In one case, the police used police batons and allegedly hit the suspect repeatedly.  In the other, the police allegedly roughly pushed the suspect to the ground after he was resisting, and then failed to properly supervise him.  No police batons were used, and there have been no allegations of hitting or kicking.  They're completely different scenarios.

[Section 87]

These "multiple witness accounts" cited above are the account of one anonymous friend of the victim.

Several news reports cite at least three witnesses, possibly four.

I'm not sure that that's completely reliable, and if I'm determining the veracity of the statements, I'd tend to go with the one that is an open public record, rather than the statements of an interested attorney and a witness hiding behind a cloak of anonymity.

So far, the names of the officers haven't been released. Why aren't you accusing the police of hiding behing a cloak of anonymity? We've heard from an attorney for the deceased's family. We've heard from a spokesman for the police department (the Commissioner). Are you saying that one of those sources is more disinterested than the other? Are the officers' statements public record yet? They haven't appeared in any news reports that I've seen. Only the statements of the attorney and the commissioner. Both are clearly interested parties.

If the attorney's statements are suspect because of anonymity and lack of impartiality, then Davis's statements must be suspect on the same grounds.

It might be appropriate to wait for an impartial review. No such impartial review can come from the Police Department or the officers' union. Statements by the attorney should not be taken as facts, nor should statements by Commissioner Davis. Neither source has any impartiality, or any status as a "disinterested party." One is an attorney, and the other is a politician.

[BballTim]

Here's another story of police ganging up on a "suspect" which resulted in a suspect's death, this time a mentally challenged man in neighboring Rhode Island:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/WWARWICK_DEATH_30_06-30-08_N8AMPO1_v157.411489a.html

One has nothing to do with the other.

They are both examples of a bunch of police officers bum rushing a "suspect" and the "suspect" subsequently dying.  I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out. 

  It might be semantics, but I wouldn't use the phrases "mentally challenged" and "mentally ill" interchangeably.

[nickagneta]

Just that people know it is standard operating procedure when arresting an intoxicated person to call for an ambulance for transport due to the medical conditions that could arise. If it went down exactly as Woodman's friends say it did, and it very well could have, the police officers could have cuffed him and left him on the ground awaiting transport.

If immediately after cuffing him and turning away to make the call, Woodman had his episode that caused him to stop breathing it is possible that the officers didn't notice he had stopped breathing for a minute or more before attempting to revive him.

In which case, it is possible that the Police did absolutely nothing wrong and everything by the book correct.

It's an unfortunate incident, but even with the accounts that are coming out, it is very, very likely, no matter how much people might want it to be otherwise, that the police had nothing to do with this young man dying.

You obviously are biased toward the police, and have little credibility to discuss this topic rationally.  From what I just read in today's Globe, the police and the civilian witnesses are telling very different stories. It looks to me like the kid made a joke about the large police presence on the corner as they walked by, and the police went off on him. 

The police obviously had SOMETHING to do with him dying, regardless of his medical history.  I just hope the truth is allowed to come out.   

May I ask why exactly if I have a bias towards the police officers, and I'm not saying I do, why I have any less credibility in discussing the topic rationally than does someone who has an obvious bias against police officers?

I have said from the beginning that I believe in labeling this the fault of the police wrong. That from the facts in evidence that the police did nothing wrong. I have said we should wait for the investigation and autopsy report.

When the article came out this morning with the statements of an anonymous friend who was present stating his version of things my exact words were:

I've gotta say the account the nameless friends gave seem extremely different from the police account, however, if I was a friend of the victim and it went down exactly as they are portraying, I wouldn't be so hesitant to give out my name. I would stand by my word and the memory of my dead friend.

So perhaps the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

Even given the friends' account, the cops may have been being jerks to a wise-ass but it doesn't sound like they did anything that was technically wrong. If the end result is that the friends' story is 100% accurate, which I tend to doubt is 100% accurate though I am sure there is some truth to what they said, the real evidence of wrongdoing will be coming from the coroner's report and the investigation as to just how accurate the reports are as to when he was started to be given CPR and for how long.  

I admitted the stories differ and that there is probably some veracity as to what the friend reported. I also was detached enough and know enough about how police are supposed to do their job to see that they technically may have done nothing wrong.

Even from the statements the victims friend made it is obvious that the victim was breaking the law and being difficult. That's not a good recipe to have when dealing with police officers during a night of possible civil unrest.

If the officers are guilty of anything at this point it might be not recognizing soon enough what was happening to this kid once he was apprehended and getting him CPR quickly enough.

But I wasn't there and don't know just how many other issues these officers were trying to deal with at the same time. If there was a lot going on at the time and they were dealing with multiple incidences simultaneously then it is likely they will be completely exonerated of any wrong doing whatsoever.

Believe me if these cops were nothing but a bunch of blue wall hard asses that caused this kid's death, I say go after them and make them pay. Fire them, sue them and maybe look at charges of criminally negligent involuntary manslaughter. But as of yet I have seen very little that proves there is any evidence of that occuring.

Is that a view that is what some consider to be "pro law enforcement", maybe. It may also be called a more informed and knowledgable viewpoint given my familiarity with law enforcement. But I have every right to discuss the matter rationally and I think my credibility speaks for itself.

[winsomme]

Yes, the "facts" previously presented were just the police side of the story. Other witnesses' stories are now seeing daylight. Several witnesses say that he did not try to run away; he was singled out for making a sarcastic remark. A witness says that the man was thrown face down on the pavement, and was cuffed behind his back with a policeman's boot pressing down on his back. And the man stopped breathing. Witnesses who were watching the incident indicate that an officer ordered them to leave, under threat of arrest. If true, that's a very important point.

There is no cause of death confimed yet. Let's not assume cardiac arrest (preliminary autopsy result says it was not a heart attack), and let's not blame anyone, police or victim, until there's some kind of unbiased story. Police internal investigations are not unbiased. Let's at least wait for a coroner's report.

I don't think we should simply take the police officers' story as "fact." Sadly, it's all too common for officers to lie. I know this from a small amount of personal experience, and a large amount of observation. I was in the crowd near the Garden after the game, and I saw Boston police officers beating people with batons for no reason that I could discern. One woman on Union St was holding up her phone for pictures. A group of officers walked by, and one of them cracked her on the wrist with a baton, making her drop the phone. No warning, not a word, just a quick blow to an innocent bystander. That's my eyewitness testimony.

there are VERY different ways to police these kinds of situations, and like i have been saynig here right along, this whole thing was avoidable based on the way the initial stages of it were handled. at least that is my current understanding of the situation.

i have seen good, reasonable, successful policing and that does not sound like what happened here. whether or not is was "justifiable" to try and detain this kid, there were other options. one's that could have never let it get to the point where there was a struggle.

for the most part i think that is the goal. at least i hope it is anyway....

as for trying to stop bystanders from recording events, that stuff makes me crazy.

[thedawg]

From Boston.com comes this "disturbing" story

BOSTON --Homicide detectives have launched an investigation into the death of a man taken into police custody after the Celtics' NBA Finals win earlier this month.

Police assigned to the Brookline Avenue and Fenway area to monitor pedestrians and traffic after the Celtic's victory said they spotted 22-year-old Daniel Woodman of Southwick shortly before 1 a.m. on June 18 crossing a street.

Police said Woodman, who was walking with four others, was drinking from an open container of what they believed was alcohol.

Police said Woodman fled when they approached him and struggled as they tried to handcuff him. Police said they realized Woodman was in medical distress and began administering CPR and called for an ambulance.

Woodman was taken to Beth Israel Medical Center and listed in critical condition. He died Sunday.

Suffolk County District Attorney's Office and Boston Police Internal Affairs Division are also investigating the circumstances of Woodman's death.

Investigators are awaiting the results of Woodman's autopsy to determine the cause and manner of his death.

killed for drinking a beer.....sickening.

you don't arrest someone for drinking a beer in public on the night of city wide celebration....you spill out the beer and send them on their way.

the kid runs.....let him go...my God. do you really have to "subdue" a guy drinking a beer in public? i mean, is there any common sense in the world....

We don't know all the circumstances here.  I think it's difficult to call something "sickening" when we know absolutely none of the facts, other than that this guy 1) fled cops, 2) resisted arrest, and 3) died.  I know people have a propensity to fill in the facts as they see fit, but I'm not going to judge until I have more facts.

Is that Roy Hobbs they attorney speaking?

I have to agree with Winsomme, Unless he is putting someone else in danger on a night like that dump it out and move on.

If he didn't run maybe they would have let him dump it.

I dont get it.  Why did the boy run? I was once walking in Canada on a halloween night with my friends and we all had beers and the cop stopped us and we simply stayed calm while they took our beer and spilled it.  Rest in piece, Mr. Woodman.

[wdleehi]

From Boston.com comes this "disturbing" story

BOSTON --Homicide detectives have launched an investigation into the death of a man taken into police custody after the Celtics' NBA Finals win earlier this month.

Police assigned to the Brookline Avenue and Fenway area to monitor pedestrians and traffic after the Celtic's victory said they spotted 22-year-old Daniel Woodman of Southwick shortly before 1 a.m. on June 18 crossing a street.

Police said Woodman, who was walking with four others, was drinking from an open container of what they believed was alcohol.

Police said Woodman fled when they approached him and struggled as they tried to handcuff him. Police said they realized Woodman was in medical distress and began administering CPR and called for an ambulance.

Woodman was taken to Beth Israel Medical Center and listed in critical condition. He died Sunday.

Suffolk County District Attorney's Office and Boston Police Internal Affairs Division are also investigating the circumstances of Woodman's death.

Investigators are awaiting the results of Woodman's autopsy to determine the cause and manner of his death.

killed for drinking a beer.....sickening.

you don't arrest someone for drinking a beer in public on the night of city wide celebration....you spill out the beer and send them on their way.

the kid runs.....let him go...my God. do you really have to "subdue" a guy drinking a beer in public? i mean, is there any common sense in the world....

We don't know all the circumstances here.  I think it's difficult to call something "sickening" when we know absolutely none of the facts, other than that this guy 1) fled cops, 2) resisted arrest, and 3) died.  I know people have a propensity to fill in the facts as they see fit, but I'm not going to judge until I have more facts.

Is that Roy Hobbs they attorney speaking?

I have to agree with Winsomme, Unless he is putting someone else in danger on a night like that dump it out and move on.

If he didn't run maybe they would have let him dump it.

I dont get it.  Why did the boy run? I was once walking in Canada on a halloween night with my friends and we all had beers and the cop stopped us and we simply stayed calm while they took our beer and spilled it.  Rest in piece, Mr. Woodman.

There was a warrant out for him. 

[cltpwr]

Sorry about this being my first post.  Going thru the threads, and hearing of this story, just caught my eye and curiosity.

My opinion, if it means anything is that most people can go through their whole lives without deciding to go out and vandalize cars, get caught and then skip court.  To me, the fact that he skipped court is a red flag that this kid had no respect for the law...period.  No respect for people's property...period. 

So now all of a sudden, we're to believe that he was all of a sudden a respectful kid, walking through Boston...with an open beer of course, the cops stop him and his friends, he runs, the friends stay.  The friends were not arrested.  Why?  Because they probably did the right thing and dumped the beer, stayed put and obeyed the cops.  This kid takes off and the cops give chase..that's their job.  The cops can't read minds as to why the this guy is fleeing.  Could be a minor thing, could be a major thing..they don't know.  Heck, he could be wanted for murder.  All's they know is this guy is running.  My heart goes out to any family that has to suffer the loss.  It's a tragic thing no doubt.  I found it a little distastefull that they had a Globe reportor at his bedside though.  A lawyer maybe, but getting a newspaper in a hospital to me is a little strange.

[TripleOT]

One of the cops in the incident had a record of domestic violence, and one other had an incident in his history. according to a story in today's Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/07/03/police_had_faced_discipline_before/

The family's lawyer has speculated that some of the officers "could indicate they have anger management problems." 

[Roy Hobbs]

One of the cops in the incident had a record of domestic violence, and one other had an incident in his history. according to a story in today's Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/07/03/police_had_faced_discipline_before/

The family's lawyer has speculated that some of the officers "could indicate they have anger management problems." 

Boston Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis said that neither of the two officers initiated Woodman's arrest, and that one had no physical contact with him, while the other helped push Woodman's arm behind his back while he was resisting arrest.

"There was a violent resistance to an arrest, and the incident was over very, very quickly," Davis said in a telephone interview.

================================

Another officer, Dowayne Lewis, 34, who has been with the department for seven years, was suspended two days in October 2005 for acting unprofessionally during an arrest. In that case, a man who shot a gun outside Lewis's house was arrested and placed in the back of a cruiser. Lewis, who was not on duty, approached the cruiser to identify the suspect and opened the door, in violation of department rules. The suspect tried to hit Lewis, who shoved back, Davis said.

Lewis, who has not been disciplined since the incident, was the officer who pushed Woodman's arm while he was being arrested, Davis said. "That's the sum of the contact," he said.

Certainly, as stated above, the situation should be examined.  However, it's the half-facts being thrown around that muddy this up. 

From that same article, the Police Commissioner has appointed a former U.S. Attorney to investigate the matter. 

[TripleOT]

Interesting story in today's Globe about the police response after recent titles by various Boston teams, and the results. 

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/07/21/asking_for_trouble/

[fan33]

Some folks, even here believe punishment outside of the law is warrented.

Enclosed is my question and reply to a signature I found to be, questionable, and my reply. Found in the multimedia thread of : "Recent YouTube vidio clips found to be interesting".


Hey, 86Celtics...

As I returned to this thread to hand out my TPs, I noted your signature. Does it have ANY basketball referance?

Ouote: In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law. To pursue... natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is not a valid motive, it's an emotional response. No. Not vengeance. Punishment.

Not to be political, but punishment outside of "the Law" and courts seems to me to be where individuals and people in positions of incomplete knowledge and/power is "Abusive and oppressive", most especially when done under the power of governments, unlike the principals we are suppose to hold dear. As a veteran of the armed forces at a young age, I never questioned what I/we were doing was ethical in light of upholding these freedoms and reciprical rights when our leadership told us we were spreading or defending those principals. I now know I was wrong to assume so much as fact and the rule of law and the "pattern and practice" is parramount to justice and the continuation of a civil society, local or international.

 There is no place(esspecially in America, I was taught to believe) for punishment outside of and in accordence to "The law" civil nor criminal, local and or international, least the actor becomes a criminal easpecially if the supposed punishment is for something of a civil matter which cannot be proven in a court of law.

Your signature is similar to terrorisim commited by outlaws where the mob or the selfrightous rules by abusive power and brute force. Also, mistakes have been made both historically and ongoing by the selfrightous who should be held and prosecuted by due process by the principals of "Law" or else compounding mistakes with injustice can only lead to escalated violence or revolution if the patern and practice is done by those in positions of power and trust, in our form of government and civil society governed by Laws!!!

/ TP for you Jay_Diggles, thanks again

End quotes/