Investigation launched into death of Celtics fan

[mzpanther]

To respond to nickagneta -

The idea that Cops should enforce every law regardless of the context or what law is being broken is ridiculous. I observe at least 5 people with open containers every day in Central Square and the cops aren't arresting everyone they see drinking out of a brown paper bag. Nor should they. The limited resources of a Police Department are better spent on investigations and enforcement that put people at the most risk. A person walking with an open container is a *little* different of a context than someone getting pummeled. Are we that naive?

Police are not guilty 100 percent of the time nor are they innocent 100 percent of the time. As far as I can tell there is not enough evidence to know whether what happened was just a freak accident or the fault of excessive force and/or delayed care. Any time someone was alive prior to a police intervention and then dies as a result of that intervention should not be just brushed off as "well, he was breaking the law, that's what happens sometimes. The Police were just doing their job." Breaking an open container law and then running does not mean you should be subjected to treatment that could result in death. That's the issue for me here - Were the BPD negligent or did was man's death unavoidable given the situation? I certainly do not trust the Mayor, Commissioner, or any Internal Affairs to sort out the facts without bias. *I* am not that naive.

[nickagneta]

i mean, unless you are suggesting that every kid suspected of drinking in public that dashes is chased down and arrested, i think you would agree that there is a great deal of discretion involved in handling these situations.....

I think if you flee from the cops, you should be chased.  The police may use discretion in deciding whether to arrest you after that, but they should certainly chase you, assuming that such is reasonably possible, and there isn't another situation that needs their immediate attention.

I don't think all kids with open containers should be detained or arrested.  However, once you flee from the cops after they approach you, you're asking for trouble.

like i said "asking for trouble" and actually "getting trouble" are different things.....

and i have been in the situation to know that it could have gone down differently.....i have enough knucklehead friends to know that bad decisions are made ALL the time. and the police have chosen to acknowledge the stupid behavior for what it was.....heck, many of them have been there...and they can usually tell when there is a public threat or not...

that is why i think it was avoidable.

  Why couldn't the kid have avoided it by not running? Why blame the cops? And where does the accusation that the cops killed the kid come from? 

one doesn't negate the other...

as for using the word "killed", maybe that is the wrong term....especially from a legal standpoint.

but my feelings about the matter start before any of the resisting arrest and subduing began. obviously the thing spiraled out of control when the kid ran, buti have seen situations like these handled much differently by police....especially on what should be a celebratory evening, and that is why IMO this whole thing was avoidable.

What I don't understand is that you are connecting the police officers approaching him about his drinking from an open alcoholic beverage with his death.

Who's to say that he could have had to much to drink already and just the stress of running, like possibly to catch a train wouldn't have killed him anyway.

The entire episode of his death could have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the police. It could just have been his time. The investigation and autopsy isn't done yet and you are already placing the responsibility for this kid's death squarely on the shoulders of the police because you believe that asking grown adults not to drink in public is an excessive use of power.

Why don't we wait for the autopsy and investigation to take their due course before heaping blame on honest police officers who were trying to do their job of asking someone who was breaking the law to stop breaking the law.

[dark_lord]

.especially on what should be a celebratory evening, and that is why IMO this whole thing was avoidable.

i dont know if you were at the game or not (i was fortunate to be there).  it was pretty rowdy in some spots.  lots of young adults that were drunk and acting stupid and engaging in dangerous behaviors towards themselves and others.  there were people climbing streetlights, tipping over mailboxes, throwing those newpaper machines u buy the paper out of into the street, banging on cars stuck in traffic, etc.

im not saying this kid was one of those morons, but there was alot of choas within the "celebratory evening".

just my two cents and observation about the scene on the streets following the game.

[winsomme]

.especially on what should be a celebratory evening, and that is why IMO this whole thing was avoidable.

i dont know if you were at the game or not (i was fortunate to be there).  it was pretty rowdy in some spots.  lots of young adults that were drunk and acting stupid and engaging in dangerous behaviors towards themselves and others.  there were people climbing streetlights, tipping over mailboxes, throwing those newpaper machines u buy the paper out of into the street, banging on cars stuck in traffic, etc.

im not saying this kid was one of those morons, but there was alot of choas within the "celebratory evening".

just my two cents and observation about the scene on the streets following the game.

like i said earlier, if these guys were stirring up trouble, then that changes things....but their reports have no indicated that....

[winsomme]

i mean, unless you are suggesting that every kid suspected of drinking in public that dashes is chased down and arrested, i think you would agree that there is a great deal of discretion involved in handling these situations.....

I think if you flee from the cops, you should be chased.  The police may use discretion in deciding whether to arrest you after that, but they should certainly chase you, assuming that such is reasonably possible, and there isn't another situation that needs their immediate attention.

I don't think all kids with open containers should be detained or arrested.  However, once you flee from the cops after they approach you, you're asking for trouble.

like i said "asking for trouble" and actually "getting trouble" are different things.....

and i have been in the situation to know that it could have gone down differently.....i have enough knucklehead friends to know that bad decisions are made ALL the time. and the police have chosen to acknowledge the stupid behavior for what it was.....heck, many of them have been there...and they can usually tell when there is a public threat or not...

that is why i think it was avoidable.

  Why couldn't the kid have avoided it by not running? Why blame the cops? And where does the accusation that the cops killed the kid come from? 

one doesn't negate the other...

as for using the word "killed", maybe that is the wrong term....especially from a legal standpoint.

but my feelings about the matter start before any of the resisting arrest and subduing began. obviously the thing spiraled out of control when the kid ran, buti have seen situations like these handled much differently by police....especially on what should be a celebratory evening, and that is why IMO this whole thing was avoidable.

What I don't understand is that you are connecting the police officers approaching him about his drinking from an open alcoholic beverage with his death.

Who's to say that he could have had to much to drink already and just the stress of running, like possibly to catch a train wouldn't have killed him anyway.

The entire episode of his death could have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the police. It could just have been his time. The investigation and autopsy isn't done yet and you are already placing the responsibility for this kid's death squarely on the shoulders of the police because you believe that asking grown adults not to drink in public is an excessive use of power.

Why don't we wait for the autopsy and investigation to take their due course before heaping blame on honest police officers who were trying to do their job of asking someone who was breaking the law to stop breaking the law.

as with many of these incidents, i'm not sure that we are ever going to really know what happened, but based on what has been reported so far and having seen things like this handled differently, my opinion is that it was avoidable.

one scenario is that they could have found out who the kid was from his friends who were also apparently drinking......i mean, there are a ton of ways to avoid an incident.

maybe i'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me.

[Roy Hobbs]

as with many of these incidents, i'm not sure that we are ever going to really know what happened, but based on what has been reported so far and having seen things like this handled differently, my opinion is that it was avoidable.

one scenario is that they could have found out who the kid was from his friends who were also apparently drinking......i mean, there are a ton of ways to avoid an incident.

maybe i'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me.

1) The onus isn't on the cops to act at the convenience of those breaking laws;

2) I think you're being a bit naive if you think the "ask the friends" approach would lead to effective crime-fighting;

3) What's more likely to lead to an incident: approaching a person with an open container and proceeding from there, or completely ignoring the situation and allowing a group of young guys to continue drinking in public?

I do agree with mzpanther, though, for reasons I stated earlier.  Whether or not the kid should have been approached in the first place is largely irrelevant to the bigger question of whether he was treated properly once he was in police custody.  That's the issue that the parents are focusing on, and I'm sure that's where internal affairs will aim its investigation.

The police are claiming they subdued him, shortly thereafter noticed he was having a medical episode, started CPR, and immediately called for help, including flagging down a passing ambulance.  The kid's parents are claiming that due to the existence of brain damage, he was left without medical treatment for at least five minutes, where he was oxygen deprived.

That is the real issue.  Silly matters like whether the cops should be approaching groups of kids for drinking in public (they should) or whether they should pursue a fleeing suspect (they should) are really on the periphery.

[earl]

I find it hard to believe this kid was going to get arrested before he decided to run, at least the way the article reads anyways. That's also assuming these guys weren't doing much besides drinking in public and being loud or something. If they _were_ going to get bagged, then I would agree, those cops are dicks.

That said, if you run like that, you're going to get _nailed_ if you get caught. And you are definitely going to be chased, at least initially. It is sad what happened to this kid, but he could have avoided it by not drinking in public, and not running from the police.

[nickagneta]

To respond to nickagneta -

The idea that Cops should enforce every law regardless of the context or what law is being broken is ridiculous. I observe at least 5 people with open containers every day in Central Square and the cops aren't arresting everyone they see drinking out of a brown paper bag. Nor should they. The limited resources of a Police Department are better spent on investigations and enforcement that put people at the most risk. A person walking with an open container is a *little* different of a context than someone getting pummeled. Are we that naive?

Police are not guilty 100 percent of the time nor are they innocent 100 percent of the time. As far as I can tell there is not enough evidence to know whether what happened was just a freak accident or the fault of excessive force and/or delayed care. Any time someone was alive prior to a police intervention and then dies as a result of that intervention should not be just brushed off as "well, he was breaking the law, that's what happens sometimes. The Police were just doing their job." Breaking an open container law and then running does not mean you should be subjected to treatment that could result in death. That's the issue for me here - Were the BPD negligent or did was man's death unavoidable given the situation? I certainly do not trust the Mayor, Commissioner, or any Internal Affairs to sort out the facts without bias. *I* am not that naive.

First, thanks for the inference that I'm naive, I appreciate it greatly.

Second, there's a big difference between an unfortunate soul sitting or lying on a corner off of Mass Ave Cambridge drinking during the day and a young man within a group of young men openly drinking on the night of a world championship victory by a local sports team where riots, fights and general unlawful chaos has been known to happen.

Apparently I'm not too naive to see the difference there.

Third, there's a big difference with having an officer ignore petty crimes during an ordinary day and time and having an officer ignore a crime they have been directly told to put a stop to during a time when civil unrest could be imminent and the use of alcohol could inflame such unrest.

Apparently I'm not too naive to see the difference there.

Fourth, please prove the highlighted portion of your statement. "Any time someone was alive prior to a police intervention and then dies as a result of that intervention should not be just brushed off as "well, he was breaking the law, that's what happens sometimes." As I said, the investigation is ongoing and the ME's report after the autopsy will probably tell us a lot about the validity of your statement. The man may well not have died "as a result of that intervention".

Apparently I'm not too naive to jump to conclusions.

And the entire point of my posts here have been that a couple of posters, who seem to have very little faith in local police enforcement have asserted that the responsibility of the man's death rests on the shoulders of the officers who were just doing their job. The facts seem to be getting in the way of people's opinions.

A man, with a pre-existing heart condition, who had an arrest warrant issued for him, was breaking the law by openly drinking in public on a night where officers were put on alert to curtail any open unlawful celebrations to maintain civil unrest, was approached by officers about his drinking, fled, resisted arrest and while in custody had a coronary event that ended his life.

By all accounts those are the facts in evidence and yet somehow posters are trying to put responsibility for his death on the Boston Police Department.

How about we have a little patience and wait for the autopsy and investigation as to what occured. If you have no trust in what will be issued from those departments then obviously it is you who have the issue. These same departments have already found themselves negligent in the death of a girl 4 years earlier. I don't see why they would not be truthful about their investigations.

But as you pointed out, thankfully, I am just probably naive.

[winsomme]

as with many of these incidents, i'm not sure that we are ever going to really know what happened, but based on what has been reported so far and having seen things like this handled differently, my opinion is that it was avoidable.

one scenario is that they could have found out who the kid was from his friends who were also apparently drinking......i mean, there are a ton of ways to avoid an incident.

maybe i'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me.

1) The onus isn't on the cops to act at the convenience of those breaking laws;

2) I think you're being a bit naive if you think the "ask the friends" approach would lead to effective crime-fighting;

3) What's more likely to lead to an incident: approaching a person with an open container and proceeding from there, or completely ignoring the situation and allowing a group of young guys to continue drinking in public?

I do agree with mzpanther, though, for reasons I stated earlier.  Whether or not the kid should have been approached in the first place is largely irrelevant to the bigger question of whether he was treated properly once he was in police custody.  That's the issue that the parents are focusing on, and I'm sure that's where internal affairs will aim its investigation.

The police are claiming they subdued him, shortly thereafter noticed he was having a medical episode, started CPR, and immediately called for help, including flagging down a passing ambulance.  The kid's parents are claiming that due to the existence of brain damage, he was left without medical treatment for at least five minutes, where he was oxygen deprived.

That is the real issue.  Silly matters like whether the cops should be approaching groups of kids for drinking in public (they should) or whether they should pursue a fleeing suspect (they should) are really on the periphery.

they're not on the periphery because they could have avoided the incident entirely.

you keep pointing to the idea that they should have chased after the kid and that there was nothing wrong them doing so. what i am saying is that there were alternatives to doing it and i have seen it happen. especially if the reason for approaching them was drinking in public and not causing trouble....

there is nothing naive about interviewing the friends....just start asking for IDs and you are bound to quicklliy find out what is going on....

you may call it "silly", but it easily could have avoided this from happening at all.

the "onus" may not be on the police, but being the clearest thinking and best trained people involved at the moment, they certainly have the capacity and discretion to respond in more than one way to a situation.

are you really saying that everybody drinking in public was approached that night.....and that isn't even my point, the drinking is easily ceased by telling them to knock it off. and the kid fleeing could also have been tracked down in another manner.

from my perspective this was just avoidable.  maybe i am wrong, but that's how it seems to me.

[BballTim]

  Why couldn't the kid have avoided it by not running? Why blame the cops? And where does the accusation that the cops killed the kid come from? 

one doesn't negate the other...

as for using the word "killed", maybe that is the wrong term....especially from a legal standpoint.

but my feelings about the matter start before any of the resisting arrest and subduing began. obviously the thing spiraled out of control when the kid ran, buti have seen situations like these handled much differently by police....especially on what should be a celebratory evening, and that is why IMO this whole thing was avoidable.

  One doesn't negate the other, but here's your original post:

  "killed for drinking a beer.....sickening.

you don't arrest someone for drinking a beer in public on the night of city wide celebration....you spill out the beer and send them on their way.

the kid runs.....let him go...my God. do you really have to "subdue" a guy drinking a beer in public? i mean, is there any common sense in the world...."

  It doesn't sound like you're assigning any blame to the kid.

  And I'm not sure that when the team wins the title is the best time to stop enforcing the drinking in public laws. Those celebrations tend to get ridiculously out of hand.

[dark_lord]

whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions and not blaming others.  the guy was drinking in public and was approached by police.  thats not the officers' fault, it is a result of the guy's chosen behavior.  then he took off when approached by officers, which was really stupid (turned out he had warrants). as far as i am concerned the guilt should be placed on the guy and his actions.  

if he didnt drink in public, he never would have been approached.  if he didnt flee from the officers, he wouldnt have have put himself in a situations with the officers.

again, the entire story and autopsy isnt out yet, so the result of the death is purely speculation at this point.  but at this point the blame should be on the guy's decision to drink in public and most importantly flee from the cops.

[nickagneta]

whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions and not blaming others.  the guy was drinking in public and was approached by police.  thats not the officers' fault, it is a result of the guy's chosen behavior.  then he took off when approached by officers, which was really stupid (turned out he had warrants). as far as i am concerned the guilt should be placed on the guy and his actions.  

if he didnt drink in public, he never would have been approached.  if he didnt flee from the officers, he wouldnt have have put himself in a situations with the officers.

again, the entire story and autopsy isnt out yet, so the result of the death is purely speculation at this point.  but at this point the blame should be on the guy's decision to drink in public and most importantly flee from the cops.

TP dark lord but unfortunately in today's American society, people are not responsible for the results of their own actions. It's always someone else's fault. Particularly when the chance to win a civil suit is available.

[BballTim]

as with many of these incidents, i'm not sure that we are ever going to really know what happened, but based on what has been reported so far and having seen things like this handled differently, my opinion is that it was avoidable.

one scenario is that they could have found out who the kid was from his friends who were also apparently drinking......i mean, there are a ton of ways to avoid an incident.

maybe i'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me.

  Are you seriously saying that if someone starts running when they're approached by the police that the cops should, instead of pursuing the person and finding out why he's running, just ask his friends who he was and let him go? I think you're deciding how the cops should have proceeded based on your knowledge of why the kid ran. The cops didn't possess that information at the time.

[WW1MR]

First off, he probably shouldn't have run from the cops. That never really helps the runner's situation.

Second, I have no problem with law enforcement officers. NOT a profession I would choose, but I'm glad to have them around if n when someone's trying to break into my home or something like that. The police obviously didn't kill him. He died of a medical condition. To my knowledge the only question that is being raised by the parents and in the investigation is if the officers were in anyway negligent since he DID die in police custody.

That said, all I feel is really sorry for the kid's parents. Whether or not the police officers were negligent or culpable I can't say. But the parents want to know why their 22 year old son died while in police custody. I think that's a legit question. I'm glad they are demanding some investigation and some answers. If the police did nothing wrong, than hopefully that will be made clear.

Next time he shouldn't be such an idiot.

This quote I did find distasteful. No matter how ill advised the kid's actions were, you don't say it this way. He's DEAD. He was someone's son. There will be no "next time." Kids sometimes make some bad decisions. But out of respect for his family and their loss, it's tasteless to say: "Next time he shouldn't be such an idiot" IMO.

[nickagneta]

as with many of these incidents, i'm not sure that we are ever going to really know what happened, but based on what has been reported so far and having seen things like this handled differently, my opinion is that it was avoidable.

one scenario is that they could have found out who the kid was from his friends who were also apparently drinking......i mean, there are a ton of ways to avoid an incident.

maybe i'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me.

  Are you seriously saying that if someone starts running when they're approached by the police that the cops should, instead of pursuing the person and finding out why he's running, just ask his friends who he was and let him go? I think you're deciding how the cops should have proceeded based on your knowledge of why the kid ran. The cops didn't possess that information at the time.

Not to mention it goes against everything a police officer is taught from the moment they enter the academy.

But what the hell, we don't need police officers to do the job that they have been trained to do properly. They should think first.

Like that night the officers involved should have thought:

Let's just let those kids over there continue to drink publically, get rip roaring drunk, start fights and tip over cars and throw things through windows and loot stores. Because the last thing we would want to happen is to frighten off a lawbreaker that has an outstanding arrest warrant out, to the point where he runs and then we have to chase him. Who knows he might have a heart condition and while resisting arrest have a coronary and die. We wouldn't want that to happen.

Are you people reading what you are typing?