Author Topic: tom thib's "D" vs. tex's "triangle offense"  (Read 6997 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: tom thib's "D" vs. tex's "triangle offense"
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 03:47:04 PM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice
It's weird how team defense oscillates between being vastly underrated and vastly overrated.

C's defense is not schematically and conceptually very different than, for example, Pacers' defense (or the defensive scheme O'Brien ran when he was in Boston). It's a "controlling the paint, sagging off, allowing post players to shot from the perimeter and rebounding" defense - Dick Harter perfected it in the NBA. The players make the difference; players skills and how well they execute. In this sense, team defense is very overrated.

Thibodeau is a great defensive coach not because he created some kind of genial defensive scheme; rather because he can identify the type of defense that fits his personnel, he can "sell" it to the players - and this is really hard to do -, he can make great in-game adjustments (like playing Garnett as a centerfield against Cleveland or a box-and-1 against LA), he knows what kind of drills that can help the team to improve and he can develop a player's individual defensive skills - like closing out on shooter with "high hands". Also, great team defense is very much a product of chemistry and chemistry is very much a product of coaching. Schemes are not that important: if Thibodeau was in Phoenix, he wouldn't have engaged in the same defensive team concept, because Shaq and Amare are not Garnett and Perkins. And Phoenix's defense wouldn't be nearly as good as Celtics' one.

You need players who are capable of speaking while they play (a very underrated skill), you need to keep all guys accountable, including the huper-duper-superstar - the only way of making them trust each other -, you need to motivate them to play defense- making guys like Pierce or Allen give up their bodies to take charges, not only in games but also in practices: there's no way of improving a defense if you don't train as hard as you play. And you need guys who are natural good defenders, with solid defensive fundamentals (the always underrated fundamentals). Replace Garnett with Amare, Pierce with Carmelo or Posey with Walton and our defense wouldn't have been nearly as good, even with Thibodeau in the bench. You can have great defensive concepts but if your post players tend to bite fakes, there's nothing team defense can do. If you don't have guys who provide quality individual defense, the rest of the team will have to play so much help and recover that will eventually totally wear down physically. If you don't have guys who are fast enough to play transition defense, you'd better settle for a very slow tempo and crash the boards.

In the end, it's the individual talent makes the scheme work, not the other way around. Having a player who recognizes and follows the rules set up by the staff on a consistent basis is very useful, but that alone doesn't make a great defense (at least not in the NBA, where every team can easily destroy a zone). Phil Jackson can define that whoever is guarding Pierce in the perimeter, must force him to the middle, where your help is, or force him to go to the baseline or whatever. Radmanovic can try to do this consistently. Consistency is important because it makes rotations easier to the other players - they know what's probably going to happen. But if Radmanovic isn't able to force Pierce to do any of those things, his teammates will have to overhelp too quickly and not going where and eventually the defense will become a mess.

The triangle offense is also very overrated. I wouldn't say that the triangle "has been totally dominating the league". How many teams without  a combo of Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe were NBA champions running the triangle as their primary offensive scheme? Triangle offense apologists would say that the problem in this series was not the scheme, nor the Celtics' defense, but the execution. Well, this is kind of true to any "read and react" offense. The same can be said about a "double-drive motion" offensive concept. But players are not flawless, and it's nonsensical to assume otherwise. I have a few ideas why the Lakers' triangle didn't work very well, and I'll try to get back at this after watching Germany destroying Turkey in the 2nd half.   

A last thing, though. Red's coaching philosophy was quite simple: you ask your players to do what they can do, not what they can't do. For example, it doesn't make sense for a team like the Celtics to run the triangle offense as their primary scheme because Rondo can't shoot. This is why Doc quit Rondo when he refused to take open shots or quit Powe when he fell in love with gambling in the passing lanes instead of rotating properly or it's stupid to want Garnett to play in the down block at all costs, like many fans want. This is why Red started running the fastbreak when he got Russell: he was great in the shot-blocking, rebounding and making the outlet pass (another underrated fundamental). This is why I can't understand why Phil stayed with the triangle when he had guys like Farmar, Ariza and Turiaf simultaneously in the pitch. After all these years, Red's philosophy still works fairly well.

Re: tom thib's "D" vs. tex's "triangle offense"
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 03:57:35 PM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
It was a scheme that was originally from (I believe) Pat Riley, and Doc and Thibodeau both come from the Pat Riley coaching tree (I am not 100% sure it was Riley...but it was one of his contemporaries anyways).
Dick Harter? I'm not certain but I believe it was him that started off Riley's defense.

Might be.  I actually was going to use the Pacers as an example of another team who play a similar system, but wasn't possitive if it was actually from the same "coaching tree"

Re: tom thib's "D" vs. tex's "triangle offense"
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 04:01:15 PM »

Offline johnnyrondo

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4038
  • Tommy Points: 1245
It was a scheme that was originally from (I believe) Pat Riley, and Doc and Thibodeau both come from the Pat Riley coaching tree (I am not 100% sure it was Riley...but it was one of his contemporaries anyways).
Dick Harter? I'm not certain but I believe it was him that started off Riley's defense.

Ironically when Ainge took over he let Dick Harter go as an assistant and Ainge said he wanted the Celtics to be about offense, because that was going to be what attracted free agents and what people wanted to see. After losing and more losing, I guess Ainge learned the hard way that you can't win without defense. Defensive credit should go to Thibs. It's just that in basketball circles, the head coach tends to always get the credit or take the blame, so Doc/Ainge want Doc to get the credit. It is an ego thing, I agree.

Re: tom thib's "D" vs. tex's "triangle offense"
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 04:32:50 PM »

Offline iowa plowboy

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1697
  • Tommy Points: 113
For Rivers to say he implemented even a facsimile of the defense (or any other defense for that matter) that Thibodeau implemented is laughable.  Rivers is a nice guy, but his ego supercedes the obvious.  The disgraceful defensive exhibition of the three seasons previous to this one and every other season Rivers has coached speaks to that.

It helps to have Garnett to anchor anybody's defense.  But without Thibodeau, Boston's defense with Garnett would more resemble Minnesota's defense the three seasons previous to this one.  Decent, but far from outstanding. 

This is on Thibodeau implementing, and probably led by Garnett, the players buying into a completely different mentality.  Rivers gets credit for keeping the egos (other than his own) in check.  But defensively, Rivers was just along for the ride.

Vs the Triangle?  Again, it helps to have an athletic 7ft freak anchoring, and an energized Paul Pierce playing defense like he did under Jim O'Brien.  Paul, the last 3 seasons, defended like Tank Carter.  This season, he defended like Bruce Bowen.

Danny has said the same thing.  This is "Doc's defense".  The only difference is there are better players, and it is being run by Thibodeau rather than Tony Brown.  The actual system is the same as it was last year, just implemented much better.

There are also other teams in the league that run similar defensive systems, but they don't have the ability to focus on the details that Thibodeau has (nor do they have the horses to make it work).

Whether Danny, Doc, or Red says it, the product on the court is what I'm speaking to.  Nothing they did in 2007-2008 remotely resembled anything Rivers' teams have done in his coaching history.  The implication that this is Rivers' genius is absurd and laughable.

The blitz, which was about 80% of what Rivers and Brown threw out there in an obscenely disoraganized manner, it what Thibodeau put out there about 10% of the time.  That is what the blitz is supposed to be.  A change of pace.

The reason that the young players played no defense is firstly, because they didn't know how.  Secondly, they weren't being taught.  The improvements in Perk's, Rondo's, Powe's and Tony's defense in every defense they ran last year dwarfed what they did last year in just one defense previous to Thibodeau.   It helps to have Garnett.  But it took someone other than Rivers for Paul to buy into a completely new mentality when he showed no regard whatsoever defensively during any of Rivers' tenure prior to this season.  But then again, neither did any of Rivers other players.