Author Topic: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves  (Read 22110 times)

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Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2008, 07:52:12 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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GC, okay, I've got to respect your thinking. And I would agree, you can't have enough good players who play aggressive D.

Apart from Posey, here are my thoughts. With Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perk, Posey, Powe and Baby, we would have our starting five, Sixth Man, and backups at power forward. That leaves two major areas - backup point and backup center, plus probably another need at 2-guard.

Here's who I'm interested in from the unrestricted FA list:

1) Big men - I'm expecting PJ Brown to retire. I am looking for legit centers (not PFs) who can play D. I'd keep Pollard for the veterans' minimum (no luxury tax) plus look for one of these guys: Kurt Thomas, DeSagana Diop, Theo Ratliff, maybe even take a flier on Patrick O'Bryant and hope we can get him to keep up with defensive rotations, since he can block shots.

Ratliff might consider coming for the vet's minimum - I think he'll be pushed out in Detroit, since they want to give Amir Johnson and Maxiell more minutes, and if they trade Wallace or McDyess, it will likely be for another big man, plus he seemed to like being in Boston and said a lot of complimentary things about our organization and medical staff after he left. If not the minimum, I think he can be had for about $2 mil a year - maybe a portion of the MLE or the whole LLE.

Thomas would cost more, probably $3-4 mil a year, and competition for him would be tougher. I think SA, Phoenix, LA, and Dallas, at least, will have him on their radar. Diop might cost something in that range on potential but competition might not be so stiff.

2) Backup point - I like the idea of trying to hold on to Eddie House while letting Cassell either give it one last shot with another team or segue into coaching. I still like him, but I don't think he works here.

But I still want another guy who can handle the ball and play D off the bench. I have four real targets in my mind - Keyon Dooling, Anthony Carter, Darrell Armstrong and Lindsey Hunter, in that order.

Dooling first. He's a great defensive point guard and is relatively big and young. He's 28, 6'3", and his points-saved per 40 minutes last year was 7.98, remarkable especially considering how bad the Magic's defense is overall. For the record, despite being a backup who played only about 18.5 minutes a night, Hollinger put him as his All-Defensive Second Team point guard (behind only Rondo). He's a good midrange shooter, too. Problems - he doesn't shoot the 3 and he turns the ball over a decent amount. On the flip side, he doesn't force 3s knowing he can't hit them with any consistency. All that said, I think Orlando finds a way to keep him.

The remaining three are old, yes, and none of them can really shoot, but all three have important things that we need - all play aggressive defense, all of them hustle (since they're not in the league for skill), and all of them have low turnover rates.

As for the others, Carter is a little younger (33 v. 40 for Armstrong and 37-38 in Dec.-for Hunter), he shoots a bit better (.458 from the field, .349 from 3 point land), and he's got pretty good size. He's 6'2", 195, and started alongside Allen Iverson for the 50-win Nuggets, meaning he's used to defending the bigger guards and it's conceivable you could play Carter with House for some stretches. He's not a good shooter, but he doesn't force shots and is selective. He's played pretty well alongside stars like AI and Melo so I think he'd play well with guys like KG, Pierce and Ray. He has the best assist to turnover ratio of the 4 guys mentioned at 3.13.

And I just like him and his story. He dropped out of high school and started just playing street ball in Atlanta until someone convinced him to try JUCO. He transferred to Hawaii, but shoulder injuries caused him to go undrafted and he ended up in the CBA. But he scrapped on, and got picked up by a bunch of different teams before earning the starting point guard role in Denver. When AI says a guy "plays with his heart," I want that guy on my team. Whether Denver tries to keep him is entirely uncertain, but for a couple mil, he'd probably come.

Of course, Armstrong has that going for him too. Doc has said that the intensity KG brings is second among all players he's ever coached, behind only Armstrong. So he brings heart and energy, plus he's close with Doc With his age, he might be available for the veteran's minimum. Still, he is 40, and is just going to get slower and slower. He already brings no offense (.364 shooting, only a 1.78 Assist to Turnover ratio) so if his energy and speed slow down, he won't give you much on defense, either. Still, if Posey ends up with our full MLE, we might have to go with guys who will sign for the veteran's minimum, like Armstrong.

Hunter is last to me - I like his defense and his size, and I think he might be expendable in Detroit, but he shoots way too much for a horrible shooter. Carter and Armstrong aren't shooters, either, but they don't green light it the way Hunter does. His defense is clearly still there, though, and with his size, he might be able to play next to House as well in some situations.

3) Additional wing player - If we are willing to give Tony his qualifying offer ($2.7 mil), I don't think anybody will go after him too hard. I'd like to keep him. I think he's a valuable additional guy to have. I only think he's worth about $2 mil a year, but I'd pay up to about $4 mil (short term) to keep him and see how he progresses a year after surgery. He did, after all, blow up a year after his first surgery, after being subpar immediately after his return. If we could get Dooling, I'm not sure Tony is necessary, but I don't expect Dooling to be available.

My guess is if Posey exercises the option, we can spend $7 mil. My choices on allocating that money, in this order:
1. House
2. Dooling - think he'll go elsewhere
3. K Thomas - think he'll go elsewhere
4. T Allen
5. A Carter
6. Ratliff
7. Diop
8. O'Bryant
9. Armstrong

I think we could get House for <$3 mil, T Allen for $2.7 (won't count against exception money), Carter for <$3 mil, and Ratliff and Pollard for the vet minimum (does Theo want more than a chance at a ring?). We'd still have plenty left over to sign any second round picks and have some cash stashed for midseason. We wouldn't have roster space, though.

Those moves would give us Rondo, Ray, Carter, House, T Allen and Pruitt at guard; Pierce, KG, Posey, Powe, Davis and Scalabrine at forward; and Perkins, Ratliff and Pollard at center. 15. No room for any rookies (I think we have 3 picks - our first and second, and Portland's second). Maybe we can get enough from Pruitt and a pick to obviate the need for a guy like Carter. Maybe we can get Dooling and let TA go, letting Dooling fill the Cassell and Tony Allen roles. Maybe we don't keep Pollard (though if we're going with a guy like Ratliff, it makes sense to have two guys, even if neither can hit that 12 footer consistently like PJ) and focus more on a younger backup for Perk in the draft or free agency (like O'Bryant or Diop).

If we have to spend most of our MLE on Posey, then we have more concern. I'd still consider keeping House with the LLE, if possible, and we'd have to go with all veteran's minimum guys - ideally, something like Armstrong, Ratliff and Pollard. No telling whether we could pull that off, though.

The Powe-Davis thing will come to a head next year when both contracts expire. Difference is, we can pay Powe without affecting our exceptions - Davis would have to sign for about $1.3 million a year for 2 years or else his salary would come off our MLE/LLE because we'll only have early Bird rights (175%) while we'd have full Bird rights for Powe. And as has been said, they duplicate each other in a lot of areas. I like both a lot, but there can only be one. And if we can unload Scalabrine in the process, all the better, clearing out two roster spaces and bringing back one legit player, preferably a center.
Go Celtics.

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2008, 08:21:44 PM »

Offline IdahoGreen

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What do you think the odds are that Danny will try for one of the "big fish" in the free agent pond?  Consider Baron Davis, for example.  He has been paid just over $17 million per year from Golden State.  If the Celtics let go of the expiring contracts (House, Tony Allen, Pollard, Cassell, Brown), they could easily match that. 

Plus, we have seen that some are willing to take a pay cut to play for the Celtics, so they could try to keep one of the aforementioned for longer, or at least put the team closer to the salary cap.


Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2008, 08:22:48 PM »

Offline keith133

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if pj and sam retire we will need a veteran big man and a point

1)how about alonzo mourning for the vet minimum as i read he wants to come back for another year

2) jannero pargo is unrestricted but would probably be too expensive

3) tyronn lue is a free agent but is not really a pure point but might be a option if eddie house leaves


Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2008, 08:33:20 PM »

Offline CelticsPrideKG

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To me, there are six absolute essential players for this Celtics team: the starting five and James Posey. Fortunately, we only have to face the possible loss of one of those guys - Posey. To me, he brings a unique skill set and energy to this team and I think we should make sure he stays as long as we keep PGA together. .....

<snip>

Bottom line, I would expect Posey not to exercise his player option and hit free agency instead, but I would give him whatever it took to keep him in Boston. We can find adequate replacements at other spots, but to me, Posey's a necessity and cannot be duplicated by Pietrus, Barnes, Childress or any other wing defender who might be available.

I mention earlier in this thread that we can come very very close to a 4 year MLE offer from another team (i can't see teams going full 5 years with Posey) using a 5 year non-bird tender.

I also agree that Posey's a necessity -- but we need an insurance policy for him and T. Allen getting hurt.  Just keeping Posey doesn't mean he'll play the full 4/5 years...

I think the closest to Posey is Trenton Hassell.... move Scal and Big Baby (though Scal earned his full 5 year salary with his presser last night) for Hassell and we've got another lock-down defender.


TP for the Hassell mention.


I have no idea what happened to his career since about the 2005 season, but if he can play defense at a similar level as he was back in 2003-2004 and still hit a mid range jumper with some consistency I'd love to have him on the team.  Hassell would routinely take the likes of Kobe, Carmelo, Lebron, out of their game by playing amazing defense.

Can he still do that?

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2008, 08:47:13 PM »

Offline wiley

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Posey and House bring tangible skills, veteran leadership, and good energy to the team.  The Celtics should try to honor the chemistry they've found/created.  Don't think you can just plug in any random player, regardless of how skilled they are on paper.....So, do what it takes to keep Posey and House (only exception being if they didn't want to be here for some odd reason).

Other than that, give Tony another year and draft the best available player...

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2008, 08:52:07 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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What do you think the odds are that Danny will try for one of the "big fish" in the free agent pond?  Consider Baron Davis, for example.  He has been paid just over $17 million per year from Golden State.  If the Celtics let go of the expiring contracts (House, Tony Allen, Pollard, Cassell, Brown), they could easily match that. 

Plus, we have seen that some are willing to take a pay cut to play for the Celtics, so they could try to keep one of the aforementioned for longer, or at least put the team closer to the salary cap.



Nil. First, the combined salaries for the 5 guys you mention is about $7 million, nowhere near enough. Second, the salaries of those guys is irrelevant to what we could pay a free agent. We can only pay a free agent whatever money we have available under the cap. We're already well over the salary cap (and even luxury tax) for next year with the 9 guys we have (starting 5, Powe, Davis, Pruitt, Scalabrine). Because of this, the most we can offer a free agent from another team is the mid-level exception, about $5.6 mil. Eddie House is the only guy from the above list who would effect that number, since he'll be getting more than the veteran's minimum and we don't have any Bird rights for him since he's only been in Boston one season. Third, Baron has a player option I believe, and wouldn't walk away from a guaranteed $17-18 million to sign with Boston for $5 million. Even if he gave a "ring" discount, he's not going to take less than a third of what he's guaranteed. Same with any other big fish like Jermaine O'Neal or Elton Brand.

Bottom line, we're not going to get an All Star player with our MLE. In all likelihood, we'll be spending the money on Posey and looking for minimum contract guys. Our best chance at being able to make any real offseason moves remains Posey exercising his option for next year (which would probably require a promise from Ainge to extend him during the season).

Questions for CBA experts:
(1) Can we talk with Posey/his agent before he has to make a decision on his option?
(2) Can we negotiate such that he exercises his option and we immediately sign him to a 3 year, $18 mil extension under his "early Bird" rights? I know that after 2 seasons with a team, a player can resign with that team for 175% of his previous salary without affecting the MLE or LLE. But does the player have to have completed the two years before an early Bird extension can be signed (i.e., he can't sign an early Bird extension until after next season)?
Go Celtics.

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2008, 08:59:05 PM »

Offline gar

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Chicago is slated to pick Rose in many Mock Drafts. Seems either Hinrich or Duhon would be on the block rumor was that Duhon was on his way out last year. Would love to pick him up as a Backup for Rondo.

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2008, 08:59:28 PM »

Offline Barnabas

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Posey:  I suspect that our fellow contenders will do everything they can to bump up his market value.  If for no other reason than to make it hard for us to put together an effective bench.  

I really don't think we need another "project" on our bench.  We've got Rondo, Powe, Big Baby, and Gabe that we're hoping to develop.  You don't want to get caught up doing too much of that.  We are contending, not rebuilding.  For this reason, it may be better to trade away the First Round pick.

House:  I admit, I'm not an Eddie House fan.  However, it is hard to find an effective offensive player for close to minimum wage.  I would be fine with signing Eddie for slightly more than minimum, but certainly no more.

Back Up Center:  If Pollard is healthy, I think we can be patient and wait to see what becomes available during the season.  

We don't want to commit all our money and roster spot during the off season.  We need some flexibility.  For this reason, I would not be opposed to buying out some of our contracts, even small ones like Big Baby's.  

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2008, 09:25:39 PM »

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An off the beaten track question re: LA:

MAny have spoken of trading Odom -- who I think did not raise his value at all in the finals.  But why would they not consider entertaining offers for Bynum?  Yes, I get that his potential is off the charts -- but wouldn't he be able to bring in the finishing touches to this team?  Doesn't the 'Al Jefferson experiment' invite copycats?

One thought: Odom and Bynum for Noah, Deng and Hinrich. 
Chicago sets themselves up for ten years with Bynum, Rose and Thomas -- and with Odom's salary off the books in a year and Hughes off in 2, they'd be in position to nab Lebron James when he opts out of Cleveland in 2 years. 
LA would start Noah, Gasol, Deng, Bryant and Hinrich.  Looks like a stating 5 a good combination of young legs, experience, defense and offense to win a championship.  I think that 5 looks much tougher in the short run than Bynum, gasol, Odom, Bryant and Fisher.


   



Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2008, 09:38:45 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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I would be curious about people's thoughts if the Celtics were unable to resign Posey.  Which FA would you try to target instead?

My two (both from GSW): Pietrus, Barnes.
Both can hit the three.
Pietrus is longer.
Pietrus is known as more of a defender than Barnes, but I think both would thrive outside of Don Nelson's system; specifically, I think both would thrive in a defensive oriented system like we have got going here in Boston.

Other 2/3s that people have in mind?????

I keep saying this, but I haven't seen anyone else mention him:

Mo Evans.  Do you guys know who he is?  Well, he's good, and he's a great fit on this team.  Plus, stealing him from a conference rival wouldn't be a bad thing.
God bless and good night!


Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2008, 10:11:50 PM »

Offline Barnabas

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BrickJames:  I know nothing about Mo Evans.  Sorry, I can't comment or give an opinion.  Likewise with Barnes.

Pietrus:  He'd be great on defense and running on the open court.  Unfortunately, he lacks Posey's range.  We have to have range from the SG and SF spots because Rondo is not a shooter. 

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2008, 10:12:34 PM »

Offline Brendan

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I'm a big fan of using a model for planning. My model is:

Starters - expect about 35 minutes per a night from each guy.
Rotation - 3 or 4 guys off the bench who are the bulk of the non-starter minutes
Reserves - 3 or 4 single skill guys, step in guys, projects.

Our starting 5 is fine, with no questions. We definately want to watch the minutes for the 2,3,4 - but I'm optimistic that Perk can keep improving on his fouls and Rondo will be able to stay out longer. I see House, Posey, and Powe as the prime four off the bench. Keeping the gang together at any cost is usually a big mistake, but this group can be kept easily.

How we'll sign and use them:

James Posey - 3 year full MLE (years not dollars kill you) or 4 year non-Bird. Same role.
Eddie House - worst case two year LLE, probably a one year gets it done. Same role.
Leon Powe - very good (not great, but very good) offensive player, will continue to learn how to play NBA D (has the ability to play bigger on D just like O) sees minutes up as Doc finally trusts him.

Remaining needs:

1. Big men for bodying up and throwing out fouls.
2. Reserve PG for ball handling when Detroit approach is used.
3. Backups in case of injuries to the above 8.

I don't think we have number one. We can either use MLE (if not on Posey) to get a quality guy that breaks into the top-9 (Diop would be very good.) Otherwise we use the vet minimum to bring in big bodies that can give 5-10 minutes "on demand." Garnett is just not as good playing the Perk (big body) role as he is playing PF next to a big. (Exception is if another team goes small, then KG is fine as the center.)

Can Pruitt handle the 2? Maybe. DA's track record with late draft picks is exceptional - even Banks and Green, his only "misses" were actually solid if you understood the "homerun" mentality. Hopefully this is a good omen. If not we should be able to find a decent 3rd string PG through vet minimum, LLE, or depth trades.

#3 - the backups, I see Tony Allen as a great fit on the wing... if any of Pierce, Allen, Posey are down for a while, then Tony can take over their role, and the others stay put, e.g. when Ray Allen went down, Tony stepped in as the starter. House and Pruitt (or whoever we get to cover #2) at PG should be decent, although if Rondo (tie your shoes man!) is out for any period we are in trouble, Powe provides great depth behind KG. Perk we'll need the big bodies for, plus BBD and Scal.

That's the baseline - this is not to say Danny shouldn't look for other options. Much like he turned a bunch of players ranging from mediocre to very good into two excellent guys, if he's able to turn a couple okay guys into another Posey type bench player, then we are looking even better.

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2008, 10:36:50 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Some ideas:

1. LAL: Lamar Odom and Vlad Rad for SAC: Brad Miller and Ron Artest.

--> Not sure what Brad has left in the tank, but taking his contract is probably worth it to get rid of the two clowns. LAL made a huge mistake signing Walton to BIG money. There was no reason to do it, when he could have been had for less or replaced, but now I think they are stuck with him, so getting rid of Vlad Rad and Odom make sense.

2. BOS: We need to take advantage of the stupidity in Memphis. They have a legitimate log jam at PG and a combo guard to boot. They also have Darko who is under rated, but maybe not in their plans. As I outlined, those are the two place we could make a big impact. Pieces I'd consider using: Scal ($), Tony Allen (S&T), Draft Pick, DWest trade exception, and Pruitt.

3. As mentioned using our picks to get a superior talent for a few years from now from Europe. Or rolling them over for a future pick.

AVOID bad contracts and blindly giving up future picks at all costs, nothing will kill a team with the elite talent faster than getting bogged down with bad contracts and having no way to get cheap young players.


Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2008, 10:48:21 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Posey needs to be considered as much a part of the core of this team as R. Allen, Pierce, KG and Rondo.  He needs to be kept around as long as they plan on contending.  As Danny said after the game last night, Posey adds a toughness and an edge to his game that you don't get with the big 3.

After that, you're talking filling in with the best spare parts available.

I like House, but you should be able to find a similar player for similar money.  Then again, I can't see there being a huge demand for him.

I'd give Gabe Pruitt a chance to win the backup PG role.  Eddie would be the perfect insurance policy if Pruitt's not ready.

Powe and Big Baby are kind of redundant so I could see one of them being moved.

I would expect Scal to be back.

Re: Boston and LA: Offseason Moves
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2008, 11:27:46 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

(1) The starting 5 is set.  All under contract
(2) PJ Brown, Cassell and Pollard almost certainly won't be back.


Given those two facts, let's look at players 6-12 in the rotation: Posey, House, Tony Allen, Leon Powe, Glenn Davis, Brian Scalabrine, Gabe Pruitt. It's clear that the first 5 guys on the list fill useful roles, and even Scalabrine is a little front court insurance.  Pruitt is under development.  I would have no problem leaving this group as is.

That leaves 3 spots.  IMHO one must go to a "true" backup point guard.  Duhon is probably too expensive, but Kevin Ollie would do nicely, and he's an unrestricted free agent.

IMHO the other two spots should go to young players.  They must start thinking about the future, and the first "watershed" event occurs in 2 years, when Ray Allen's deal expires.  If, instead, they full those slots with veterans willing to work cheap, they risk what happened to the Spurs this year, when everyone seemed to get old at the same time.