Am I simply drinking too much koolaid?

[ScoobyDoo]

I keep reading all these pundits saying stuff like "The Celtics might have a chance if..." or "The only way the Celtics can win is..." or "The Celtics may have an outside chance if..."...

I really just don't get it. I actually consider myself a very objective, clear minded analyst when coming to basketball match ups, including ones involving the Celtics.

1. I admit I was suprised by the Hawks. However, I did then and still do now chalk that up to a team with nine new players and enormous expectations on them, feeling the weight of those expectations and trying to figure out how to play together in a playoff environment.

2. I was very concerned about Cleveland from the start of the season, let alone the playoffs. They simply match up with us well defensively on the perimeter and have alot of good quality big men who are very willing to be physical. Finally, they have LeBron James, a force of human nature on the basketball court. I expected a very tough battle with an uncertain outcome as long as the game was close and Lebron was playing.

3. I actually expected a seven game series with Detroit, with an outside chance we'd take it in five. I thought we'd win both at home and then take one in Detroit and then win in game five at home, or it would go seven. They made me very nervous. The entire team. Veteran, tough, aggressive.

But now, after watching this team grow up before my eyes and learn how to close out games in the playoffs and on the road I just don't feel like the inexperience in a playoff siuation that plagued them early on is applicable anymore. I mean they beat Detroit, in Detroit, twice. The last game with Detroit having it's back against the wall. That is not easy.

I see us not having pressure as an issue

I see us knowing how to play physical and going and taking it

I see Perkins crushing Pau Gasol, Garnett kicking the crap out of Odom and Pierce having a field day with "anyone" they throw at him.

I see Rondo running circles around Fisher

I see LA's bench disappearing when they actually see some defense for the first time.

I see Kobe being tough, but we can jam him, crowd him, foul him, beat on him.

I just think we are going to maul this team and most likely win in 5 or 6 games.

I see a demolition about to happen so I just don't understand why everyone is picking the Lakers and why some people have expressed "fear" about playing these guys.

What am I missing?


   

[Redz]

I hear ya Scoobs (can I call you Scoobs?, it just seems right).

I know there is some element of homerism involved in thinking the Celtics will win this series, but I think it's less of the "RAH-RAH" stuff, and more of what you said here:

But now, after watching this team grow up before my eyes and learn how to close out games in the playoffs and on the road I just don't feel like the inexperience in a playoff situation that plagued them early on is applicable anymore. I mean they beat Detroit, in Detroit, twice. The last game with Detroit having it's back against the wall. That is not easy.

It comes from watching this team closely from over a hundred games now (scary to think that, huh), and seeing them overcome whatever has been thrown their way. 

On the other hand, the Lakers have done the same, but have had a better playoff record doing so.  It looks prettier, but the bottom line results are the same. 

As a fan, you're bound to have some blind faith, but no, this is not 100% kool-aide drunkenness. They're an excellent team, and until someone knocks them off, I'll keep believing they can beat anyone.  If the Lakers can do so, more power to them.

The fans and the Celtics should feel very confident heading into this series.  Nevermind the Lakers, what, exactly, have the Celtics done to not be worthy of out utmost faith?

[PerkinsERA43]

I keep reading all these pundits saying stuff like "The Celtics might have a chance if..." or "The only way the Celtics can win is..." or "The Celtics may have an outside chance if..."...

I really just don't get it. I actually consider myself a very objective, clear minded analyst when coming to basketball match ups, including ones involving the Celtics.

1. I admit I was suprised by the Hawks. However, I did then and still do now chalk that up to a team with nine new players and enormous expectations on them, feeling the weight of those expectations and trying to figure out how to play together in a playoff environment.

2. I was very concerned about Cleveland from the start of the season, let alone the playoffs. They simply match up with us well defensively on the perimeter and have alot of good quality big men who are very willing to be physical. Finally, they have LeBron James, a force of human nature on the basketball court. I expected a very tough battle with an uncertain outcome as long as the game was close and Lebron was playing.

3. I actually expected a seven game series with Detroit, with an outside chance we'd take it in five. I thought we'd win both at home and then take one in Detroit and then win in game five at home, or it would go seven. They made me very nervous. The entire team. Veteran, tough, aggressive.

But now, after watching this team grow up before my eyes and learn how to close out games in the playoffs and on the road I just don't feel like the inexperience in a playoff siuation that plagued them early on is applicable anymore. I mean they beat Detroit, in Detroit, twice. The last game with Detroit having it's back against the wall. That is not easy.

I see us not having pressure as an issue

I see us knowing how to play physical and going and taking it

I see Perkins crushing Pau Gasol, Garnett kicking the crap out of Odom and Pierce having a field day with "anyone" they throw at him.

I see Rondo running circles around Fisher

I see LA's bench disappearing when they actually see some defense for the first time.

I see Kobe being tough, but we can jam him, crowd him, foul him, beat on him.

I just think we are going to maul this team and most likely win in 5 or 6 games.

I see a demolition about to happen so I just don't understand why everyone is picking the Lakers and why some people have expressed "fear" about playing these guys.

What am I missing?


   

THANK YOU!!!!! This is exactly how I feel. I've been toning it down a bit because everyone seems to think the lakers will dominate, but honestly, I see everything the same way you do. Celtics in 6. If the C's take the first 2 at home, the series is over.

Lakers fans will probably come here and dispute what you've said, especially about their bench. They'll say that we don't know anything about their bench, and that they have seen real defense, and blah blah blah. BUT the thing is 1) we (or at least I) have seen the lakers paly about 40 times on national TV. It sickens me how much they are on. Also, 2) they haven't seen either of the two BEST defenses in the league, which are Boston (#1) and Detroit (#2). Spurs are old and their D is good but not great. Utah is a good defensive team. They both are top 15. But not #1. For the lakers to have an outside shot at winning, Odom needs to play out of his mind, and Pau Gasol will need to find a way to score on a very underrated defender in KP43. Celtics in 6, for sure*.

*kinda

I know this post isn't  too educated or well thought out but meh....

[Lakers6]

Scooby-Doo,
   Here is what you are missing: the Celtics of the Playoffs are not playing as well as the Celtics of the first half of the season. Then, you were playing lock-down defense. I was at Staples when you guys beat the Lakers, and I saw a ferocious lock-down defense that said to me: "Wow this team is going to win 2 or 3 straight championships until Bynum grows up and starts to kick some ass."
    Fast forward to April/May, suddenly the Hawks are kicking YOUR ass! What happened? A bunch of no-names are making the Big 3 look human. I will tell you a couple of problems that I saw:  Garnett is no Bill Russell, ok nobody is, but he goes hot and cold and can be scored on. Pierce is incredibly immature. Ray Allen is a non-factor.
     I actually like the Lakers backcourt match-up against the Celts--Rondo is a major liability, Allen can't figure out how to be #3 in the Big Three, Sam Cassell is the Robert Horry of the Celtics, and Eddie House, who cares? For the Lakers this will be Derek Fisher's easiest series, after guarding 3 All-Stars, he can sleep-walk through this match-up.
    You guys will have to see Kobe for yourselves, he is playing at a whole new level--I watched him take over games the way only Michael Jordan could. Right now, short of Kevin McHale coming out of the stands to clothesline him, the Celtics can not stop him. The other funny thing is the Lakers back-up guards will kill the Celtics bench--it's really funny because Farmar and Vujacic are two Danny Ainge "don't you hate them?" guards who change the game in the 2nd quarter.
    The Celtics front line against the Lakers? That will be interesting, Pierce will get his points (like Duncan did) but that will be it. Who else will score for you? Garnett? Sometimes, but his offense has been really shaky against teams he should dominate.
    The thing that should scare you is that you were down 10 to Detroit when they had 2 injured starters trying to make a go of it. You barely squeeked by. If Detroit can hold you off with 3 starters....well, that doesn't sound so good. Meanwhile the Lakers went 12-3 against three 50-win teams.
     The other big issue, is that do you really think you can be in this with Doc Rivers making the rotation choices (Sam Cassell almost blew you out of the first round single-handedly and yet Doc stood by him) and the last minute play calls? I don't like that match-up.

Good luck, and may the best team win....

[Donoghus]

I think part of it is some shock because the outside world (aka the national media) is all aboard the Lakers train right now. 

This is a bit of a shock to us because we're been following this Celtics team all season and we know very well what they're capable of doing.  We've seen them be dominate throughout the regular season and already fight some wars in the post-season.  We finally arrive at the NBA Finals and we find that the national pundits don't share our enthusiasm.

I happen to think that a bit of it may be chalked up to homerism but I also think that there is a very realistic component to it that if you've really been following the NBA this season, then you know that the Celtics are a very good team that is completely capable of holding their own if not defeating the Lakers in the NBA Finals.  I don't think the national media has picked up on the fact yet that this series really needs to be furthered analyzed rather than just leaving it at "Kobe won't be stopped or denied.".  Breaking it down from a postional analysis and depth standpoint, and I think you'll find things to be much different.

The national media is in Kobe-love mode right now and will continue to be in the days leading up to Game One.  However, I think you'll see the tone, nationally, change relatively quickly when the national media picks up on the fact that this will be no Lakers cakewalk, and will in fact be, an all out war.

[Redz]

Scooby-Doo,
   Here is what you are missing: the Celtics of the Playoffs are not playing as well as the Celtics of the first half of the season. Then, you were playing lock-down defense. I was at Staples when you guys beat the Lakers, and I saw a ferocious lock-down defense that said to me: "Wow this team is going to win 2 or 3 straight championships until Bynum grows up and starts to kick some ass."
    Fast forward to April/May, suddenly the Hawks are kicking YOUR ass! What happened? A bunch of no-names are making the Big 3 look human. I will tell you a couple of problems that I saw:  Garnett is no Bill Russell, ok nobody is, but he goes hot and cold and can be scored on. Pierce is incredibly immature. Ray Allen is a non-factor.
     I actually like the Lakers backcourt match-up against the Celts--Rondo is a major liability, Allen can't figure out how to be #3 in the Big Three, Sam Cassell is the Robert Horry of the Celtics, and Eddie House, who cares? For the Lakers this will be Derek Fisher's easiest series, after guarding 3 All-Stars, he can sleep-walk through this match-up.
    You guys will have to see Kobe for yourselves, he is playing at a whole new level--I watched him take over games the way only Michael Jordan could. Right now, short of Kevin McHale coming out of the stands to clothesline him, the Celtics can not stop him. The other funny thing is the Lakers back-up guards will kill the Celtics bench--it's really funny because Farmar and Vujacic are two Danny Ainge "don't you hate them?" guards who change the game in the 2nd quarter.
    The Celtics front line against the Lakers? That will be interesting, Pierce will get his points (like Duncan did) but that will be it. Who else will score for you? Garnett? Sometimes, but his offense has been really shaky against teams he should dominate.
    The thing that should scare you is that you were down 10 to Detroit when they had 2 injured starters trying to make a go of it. You barely squeeked by. If Detroit can hold you off with 3 starters....well, that doesn't sound so good. Meanwhile the Lakers went 12-3 against three 50-win teams.
     The other big issue, is that do you really think you can be in this with Doc Rivers making the rotation choices (Sam Cassell almost blew you out of the first round single-handedly and yet Doc stood by him) and the last minute play calls? I don't like that match-up.

Good luck, and may the best team win....

2 things in green I agree with completely. 

If I could make myself neutral I'd love to see Kobe play at this level in much the way I did with Jordan.  Unfortunately Kobe's more of a wiener than MJ, and the Celtics don't suck anymore so it's tough to look at Kobe purely as a great player - which is a shame because I do enjoy watching great players play.

The rest I think you're underestimating what the Celts have gone through to get to this point and over-estimated the Lakers (your prerogative as a Lakers fan). 

[cuckroller]

Personally, I think everybody here is overestimating everything according to their team affiliations.

However, though it is unfamiliar ground for me, but not the first time, I am more in line with reasoned approach of Donaghus to this question.

I am a Laker fan, just so that no one mistakes where I am coming from.

A few observations - well, really thoughts that occurred while watching the unfolding of the playoffs for both of these squads.  I think that the starting positions of both teams were pretty much diametrically in controposition ever since the start of the season.  With the acquisition of Garnett the pressure was on from the get-go for Boston to do very well this season.  It was expected, and especially by the fans with a years long thirst of real playoff possibilities.  So, great campaign during the season, and even though there are many detractors, not of the Celtics, but of the relative conference strength, Boston nonetheless played the games and won most of them.  The Playoffs:  Boston did have for the first two rounds pretty weak competition.  However, I think that there was an enormous pressure brought onto the team not only by the teams players themselves (I speak of the Big 3 that want to win a ring), but also by the national press.  So, the opposing teams really had nothing to lose by playing their brains out.  Boston had everything to lose.  Perhaps disingenuously Boston thought that all they had to do was show up, and perhaps they were surprised at the difficulties that they were encountering.  Add to this mix, at least in my estimation, some very bad coaching in regards to the rotations, and substitutions of the players, and voila - you had doubting players.  I blame the Boston Coach for this, more than the players themselves.  Another observation.  Kevin Garnett is a cream of the crop player, however, he is a player that always plays to the maximum of his ability.  If, for reasons of the economy of a game, perhaps a deficit, he needs to raise his game he is basically incapable of turning it up a notch because he is already playing to the max.

The Lakers, on the other hands, started out the season in a total shambles, accusations with the front office, ultimatums to be traded, etc., etc.  Then Bynum started to gel.  They found themselves slowly extracting themselves out of the lower echelon playoff tier, and they started to believe in themselves.  Kobe started to trust the other players much more and he started to play for the team (which he finally figured out that he had).  The rest is known.  Bynum went down.  Gasol was signed, and for the Laker the loss of Bynum was barely a blip.  The point is that the Lakers this year started off with no pretensions to be able to be where they are now.  This has helped them also in the playoffs because whatever they can get this year is a whole heck of a lot more than anyone in their wildest homer dreams could have ever imagined.  Basically, they have had, and have now, nothing to lose - only gain.  Even if they lose, they have gained.  It is a quite different perspective than the heavy weight that the Celtics have had to shoulder all year, and also now.

[angryguy77]

Don't think that you cans say that LA has nothing to lose. They have been the favorites since the start of the playoffs. If they don't win, many are going to view it as an upset(I don't see it taht way). Boston is in the same boat really at least with their fans.

One thing that I have to say about the expert opinions is that they really don't seem to break the two teams down. It's "they have Kobe" and thats it. Also the west I believe is not as strong as they make it out to be if we are going to use the season record argument. Yes they won more games than the east, but we had the best overall so wouldn't that make us the stronger team? The pistons could have beaten any of the teams in a 7 game series and we handled them in 6 with a win while they were desperate.

[cuckroller]

Well, regards the relative conference strength.  Though I myself do not really particularly ascribe without reserve to this viewpoint, in any case, the logic is this:  the Eastern teams with winning records were only 5, at least I think.  This leaves 10 weak teams for the Eastern good teams to basically eat up and get fat on.  So, more games against poor teams, more easy wins, etc.

Personally, I think they should do away with the Conferences.  Add 5 games to the length of the regular season.  Everybody plays everyone else 3 times during the year (the advantage of the additional home game obviously alternates from year to year).  The first sixteen teams by record make the playoffs.  Any problems with teams tied at the end of the regular season are obviated by the fact that the direct confrontations are done in triplets - so somebody wins the series.  Then Seed 1 plays Seed 16, and so forth.  The highest remaining seeds (i.e. the better teams) always play sequentially the lower remaining seeds, and this until the final round.  Simple, but maybe not elegant.

EDIT:  Regards who the pundits seem to be favoring.  Personally, I would not see a Boston victory as an upset either.  They had the best regular season record (forget the conference strength - they still won those games), and they have the home-court advantage.  As a Laker fan, it is obvious that I hope that the Lakers can pull off what I would feel to be the upset, but as most truthful fans of both sides - this series is just so up in the air that until the first game is played no one really has any idea of how events will unfold.

[hpantazo]

Scooby-Doo,
   Here is what you are missing: the Celtics of the Playoffs are not playing as well as the Celtics of the first half of the season. Then, you were playing lock-down defense. I was at Staples when you guys beat the Lakers, and I saw a ferocious lock-down defense that said to me: "Wow this team is going to win 2 or 3 straight championships until Bynum grows up and starts to kick some ass."
    Fast forward to April/May, suddenly the Hawks are kicking YOUR ass! What happened? A bunch of no-names are making the Big 3 look human. I will tell you a couple of problems that I saw:  Garnett is no Bill Russell, ok nobody is, but he goes hot and cold and can be scored on. Pierce is incredibly immature. Ray Allen is a non-factor.
     I actually like the Lakers backcourt match-up against the Celts--Rondo is a major liability, Allen can't figure out how to be #3 in the Big Three, Sam Cassell is the Robert Horry of the Celtics, and Eddie House, who cares? For the Lakers this will be Derek Fisher's easiest series, after guarding 3 All-Stars, he can sleep-walk through this match-up.
    You guys will have to see Kobe for yourselves, he is playing at a whole new level--I watched him take over games the way only Michael Jordan could. Right now, short of Kevin McHale coming out of the stands to clothesline him, the Celtics can not stop him. The other funny thing is the Lakers back-up guards will kill the Celtics bench--it's really funny because Farmar and Vujacic are two Danny Ainge "don't you hate them?" guards who change the game in the 2nd quarter.
    The Celtics front line against the Lakers? That will be interesting, Pierce will get his points (like Duncan did) but that will be it. Who else will score for you? Garnett? Sometimes, but his offense has been really shaky against teams he should dominate.
    The thing that should scare you is that you were down 10 to Detroit when they had 2 injured starters trying to make a go of it. You barely squeeked by. If Detroit can hold you off with 3 starters....well, that doesn't sound so good. Meanwhile the Lakers went 12-3 against three 50-win teams.
     The other big issue, is that do you really think you can be in this with Doc Rivers making the rotation choices (Sam Cassell almost blew you out of the first round single-handedly and yet Doc stood by him) and the last minute play calls? I don't like that match-up.

Good luck, and may the best team win....

Wow, you are going to get quite a rude awakening from Rondo, and from the the rest of the celtics as well.

[makaveli]

I know one thing:
THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF ELBOWS, CONTACT, PUSHING, TRASH TALKING, MAYBE EVEN A FIGHT

[ScoobyDoo]

Yo Redz, "Scoobs" is fine. I have so many nicknames, I am never worried about adding another one. I welcome them. I also agree with what you said. They struggled earlyw ith the expectations and the first go aroudn thing. But by the end of the Detroit series I think this team solved that puzzle and answered the bell on that issue. Decisively.

I also agree with you Perkinsera44, I do not feel the Lakers have seen any significant defense.

Lakersin6: Are Laker fans allowed to post here? Can we not maintain some sense of purity...

Seriously, I can understand why you feel very confident about the Lakers. I wouls feel the same way had the Celts rolled through the playoffs as you did. Kobe is playing out of his mind as well. He is the most dominat player in the league right now. Not an MVP, but the best player. There is a difference between those two things, in my book anyway.

The Celtics have had a target on their back all season, that can wear on you. However, the 3 teams playing the best defense in the league in the playoffs were Cleveland, Detroit and Boston. Boston being #1. The defense is still there.

Bynum will be lucky to come back, ever, the way he was with that kind of injury. If he does, and Oden is Healthy, you guys are in trouble out there.

Paul Pierce has had his bouts with immaturity, but he has gotten pat that now. He "gets it".

Garnett is one of the leading scorers in the playoffs, he'll do just fine, thanks very much

Ray Allen: I wouldn't call 25 and 29 point games non factor. Expect to see more of it.

Rondo is very underrated. Fisher will have his hands full with this kid.

Vujajic and Farmar as game changers? Not with a hand in their face. They will largely disappear.

Kobe can be crowded and jammed. You'll never stop a guy like Kobe but you can make him very inefficient. That will do.

But Lakerslosingin6, here is the main thing that I think all the pundits are missing in their laker love fest.

Round one:
you guys played a team in complete disarray and one that played Zero defense. We played the youngest, most athletic teams in the league with three up and coming, legitimate potential all stars and a good heady point guard on it that came out with energy like you guys haven't seen out West. The only other team I've seen bring that kind of intense energy so far was the Pistons.

Round two:
You guys played a team that has not one guy with a sack on him and who has an interior defense like swiss cheese. We played what I would call arguably the 3rd best team in these playoffs behind the Celts and Detroit. They had Zadrunas, Varejo, Joe Smith and Ben Wallace...4 big men who know how to play dirty and bang and hit you all night. You've got good perimeter shooters and LeBron James. I honestly believe you guys would have been lucky to win 2 games in that series. They would have annihilated you on the boards.

Round three:
You guys played an obvioulsy exhausted and aging San antonio team with one of it's three major stars injured in Ginobli. I'm also sorry to inform you that Duncan, Oberto and Horry are not as good or deep of a front line as PJ Brown, Garnett, Perkins, Powe and Pierce. Not even closed, defensively or offensively. Their defense is past it's prime.

We played a team that's been there 6 straight times and handed it to them in game six on their court. Chauncey Billups also said he was 100% the last two games and don't beleive that crap that Rip was injured, that's crap. You could tell he was just fine.

Anyway, the commom thread that everyone is missing is that you guys simply have not faced any significant defense this year. Great defenses have a tendency to make good offenses look very average when they collide.

I agree Donoughus, I think the tone will change. I'm not sure the Lakers have really met the physical challenge yet that they will face around the rim.

I don't think Kobe can be stopped for the most part. That's a given. But I think the bigger issue is that both pau and Odom are going to find their going very difficult against Perkins and Garnett. Perkins has the ability if his head is in it, to actually dominate Pau defensively. He can body up because Pau isn't fast enought o go around him. odom isn't a great enough shooter to pull KG that far away from the basket and he's a complete mismatch aroudn the rim. I could be a war but I really just expect a few barks from the lakers before it's starts unravelling and the MVP starts screaming at everyone like he was in a southern california strip mall parking lot earlier this year when things weren't going well for him.

By the way, is that a pre-requisite for being an MVP these days...throwing your teammates and the organisation under the bus when it isn't going well for you?

Godd analysis cuckroller. Different teams with vastly different seasons. I think the Celtics have met every challenge, culminating with the maturity they showed in Detroit. These guys became basketball men this playoff season, all five starters and the bench.

They will win the championship.

[hpantazo]

I know one thing:
THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF ELBOWS, CONTACT, PUSHING, TRASH TALKING, MAYBE EVEN A FIGHT

you mean in the games or on this forum?

[fan33]

I know one thing:
THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF ELBOWS, CONTACT, PUSHING, TRASH TALKING, MAYBE EVEN A FIGHT

Exactly my intuition and expectations.

Remember too, Odems obvious headhunter enforcer type hard foul of the cross body block case against Ray, MUST be avenged.

Oh yeah, I don't believe for a second that was an independent idea of Odems design, he was told to do it from the MVP, alright!

Kobes going down hard in retaliation, at some point; Probably early in the series. I would expect by game 3  

Of course, it will be on a drive to the rim on our no lay up rule; Unlike the total cheap shot on the sidelines by their headhunter Odem.

Bad, bad blood between these teams I tell ya, and to much on the line to expect otherwise!

Celtics in 6~

[RebusRankin]

KG hasn't dominated when he should? He was great versus Detroit. Heck he's been good all play-offs.

Farmer is better than any guard off the Celtics bench? If you go 3/29 or whatever it was versus Utah, this kind of claim can't be made.