Author Topic: Show Doc some Love  (Read 12938 times)

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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2008, 11:58:28 AM »

Offline SShoreFan 2.0

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For the first time all year, I threw Doc directly under the bus after game 2.  I truly thought his coaching cost the Green the momentum and thus the game in the second game.

Last night I thought his use of PJ and Sam was excellent (although, I wondered out loud how short of leash Sam was going to have if he missed a few), but the win last night goes to the players.  The players executed extremely well.  Although ------- the turnovers concerned me, many seemed unforced and that is either as sign of nerves or sloppiness.  Nice to know the team gave the coach a few nuggets to focus on for today.
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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2008, 12:41:50 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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Doc is great at media relations.  Can you imagine what the Boston media would have done to a Sox manager or Patriots coach whose teams performed the way Doc's have over the years?

Jeff Van Gundy said during Game 2 that he had never met a coach better than Doc at getting his message "out".

I thought this story from a few days ago was interesting as well.  I can't imagine someone like Francona saying things like this, though I could be wrong:

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/2008_05_22_Doc_lets_actions_speak:_Answers_critics_with_victories/srvc=home&position=6



Doc has done a good job this year and in prior years. He knows the game. He always has kept his teams together. The media only talks about the players on what they accomplish on the basketball court and to a lesser extent community service (NBA cares). An NBA coach can't win if you don't have the veteran proven talent and for the last few years, the Celtics did not have the veteran proven talent.

This year, the defense has shown up. 

Doc is outcoaching Flip Saunders this series with his adjustments.

Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2008, 02:01:38 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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The same things you are saying about Doc were said about KC Jones...big three and a bunch of nobodies...every loss was his fault because....the team was so good anyone could coach it (even a caveman?   :D ) etc.

I think KC was exactly the coach for that era, and Doc is exactly the coach this team needs.  He has them all working together to win a championship, not caring about individual stats.  Keeping great players playing team ball and adding in young talent is nearly impossible, IMO, and Doc has the vets supporting, helping, cheering for, and seemingly even liking the young guys and rookies, and even accepting and relishing the contributions of role playing vets without having anything to prove on their own parts.  There is no criticism of each other or Doc, and they don't seem concerned with the allocation of minutes, or individual stats.

We all knew this team had the talent, but who really thought they would gel so quickly and have the season we have been privileged to watch?  Like I said in another thread, the Celts have every bit as much chance to win the Championship as any other team left.  I hope they do!  But even if they don't it has been a great ride.  Thanks.
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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2008, 05:12:40 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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You said Doc is "exactly" what this team needs.  Are you saying you would rather have Doc coach the team than any on this list:

-Phil Jackson
-Gregg Popovich
-Byron Scott
-Jerry Sloan

What about this list:
-Maurice Cheeks
-Flip Saunders
-Mike D'Antoni
-Larry Brown
-Rick Carlisle
-George Karl

If you literally think he is "exactly" the right coach for this team, you have to think he is better than *all* of those coaches.  Is that what you are saying?


The same things you are saying about Doc were said about KC Jones...big three and a bunch of nobodies...every loss was his fault because....the team was so good anyone could coach it (even a caveman?   :D ) etc.

I think KC was exactly the coach for that era, and Doc is exactly the coach this team needs.  He has them all working together to win a championship, not caring about individual stats.  Keeping great players playing team ball and adding in young talent is nearly impossible, IMO, and Doc has the vets supporting, helping, cheering for, and seemingly even liking the young guys and rookies, and even accepting and relishing the contributions of role playing vets without having anything to prove on their own parts.  There is no criticism of each other or Doc, and they don't seem concerned with the allocation of minutes, or individual stats.

We all knew this team had the talent, but who really thought they would gel so quickly and have the season we have been privileged to watch?  Like I said in another thread, the Celts have every bit as much chance to win the Championship as any other team left.  I hope they do!  But even if they don't it has been a great ride.  Thanks.

Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2008, 05:15:36 PM »

Offline liam

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You said Doc is "exactly" what this team needs.  Are you saying you would rather have Doc coach the team than any on this list:

-Phil Jackson
-Gregg Popovich
-Byron Scott
-Jerry Sloan

What about this list:
-Maurice Cheeks
-Flip Saunders
-Mike D'Antoni
-Larry Brown
-Rick Carlisle
-George Karl

If you literally think he is "exactly" the right coach for this team, you have to think he is better than *all* of those coaches.  Is that what you are saying?


The same things you are saying about Doc were said about KC Jones...big three and a bunch of nobodies...every loss was his fault because....the team was so good anyone could coach it (even a caveman?   :D ) etc.

I think KC was exactly the coach for that era, and Doc is exactly the coach this team needs.  He has them all working together to win a championship, not caring about individual stats.  Keeping great players playing team ball and adding in young talent is nearly impossible, IMO, and Doc has the vets supporting, helping, cheering for, and seemingly even liking the young guys and rookies, and even accepting and relishing the contributions of role playing vets without having anything to prove on their own parts.  There is no criticism of each other or Doc, and they don't seem concerned with the allocation of minutes, or individual stats.

We all knew this team had the talent, but who really thought they would gel so quickly and have the season we have been privileged to watch?  Like I said in another thread, the Celts have every bit as much chance to win the Championship as any other team left.  I hope they do!  But even if they don't it has been a great ride.  Thanks.

I think if they win a championship you can't argue that there was a better coach for the team this year.

Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2008, 05:20:34 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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You said Doc is "exactly" what this team needs.  Are you saying you would rather have Doc coach the team than any on this list:

-Phil Jackson
-Gregg Popovich
-Byron Scott
-Jerry Sloan

What about this list:
-Maurice Cheeks
-Flip Saunders
-Mike D'Antoni
-Larry Brown
-Rick Carlisle
-George Karl

If you literally think he is "exactly" the right coach for this team, you have to think he is better than *all* of those coaches.  Is that what you are saying?


The same things you are saying about Doc were said about KC Jones...big three and a bunch of nobodies...every loss was his fault because....the team was so good anyone could coach it (even a caveman?   :D ) etc.

I think KC was exactly the coach for that era, and Doc is exactly the coach this team needs.  He has them all working together to win a championship, not caring about individual stats.  Keeping great players playing team ball and adding in young talent is nearly impossible, IMO, and Doc has the vets supporting, helping, cheering for, and seemingly even liking the young guys and rookies, and even accepting and relishing the contributions of role playing vets without having anything to prove on their own parts.  There is no criticism of each other or Doc, and they don't seem concerned with the allocation of minutes, or individual stats.

We all knew this team had the talent, but who really thought they would gel so quickly and have the season we have been privileged to watch?  Like I said in another thread, the Celts have every bit as much chance to win the Championship as any other team left.  I hope they do!  But even if they don't it has been a great ride.  Thanks.

I think if they win a championship you can't argue that there was a better coach for the team this year.


In my opinion, that is not quite logical.  So if they lose in this series, he was the wrong coach?  It seems like you should judge how he does as a coach and the team and compare it to how another coach might do with the team based on the track record of that coach, etc.

My question is, a priori, would you rather have Doc than *all* of the coaches on that list?  You have to answer that question not knowing how the season will turn out. . .

Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 07:42:41 PM »

Offline lefty12

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5 minutes into the game KG on the bench w/ 2 fouls...
3 minutes later RA joins him...
celts manage to survive big piston run in 1stQ...

and yet the doc detractors begrudge due credit?

what a joke!

one thing is unequivocal...

doc has certainly out-coached flip....

lets see you twist that to belittle a guy thats won 76 games in 1 season....


Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 10:24:39 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

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A good coach is one that adds value to what an average coach would do, which is make the decisions that, on average, are statistically correct.

A good coach is someone that *adds* something.  In the sequence you described, what was the decision Doc made that added value?

5 minutes into the game KG on the bench w/ 2 fouls...
3 minutes later RA joins him...
celts manage to survive big piston run in 1stQ...

and yet the doc detractors begrudge due credit?

what a joke!

one thing is unequivocal...

doc has certainly out-coached flip....

lets see you twist that to belittle a guy thats won 76 games in 1 season....



Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 11:46:25 PM »

Offline Scintan

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An "F" student doesn't suddenly get named to the high honor roll because he manages to pull off a "B" in one class.  In this case, while Rivers wasn't horrible in this game, his coaching in the 4th quarter was almost bad enough to cost the team the game.


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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 12:07:13 AM »

Offline PerkinsERA43

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Doc has done a good job this year and in prior years. He knows the game. He always has kept his teams together. The media only talks about the players on what they accomplish on the basketball court and to a lesser extent community service (NBA cares). An NBA coach can't win if you don't have the veteran proven talent and for the last few years, the Celtics did not have the veteran proven talent.

This year, the defense has shown up.  

Doc is outcoaching Flip Saunders this series with his adjustments.
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Thats a valid point about Flip. He has out-coached him in this series so far. However, Flip is an average coach. In the Cleveland series I thought Mike Brown out-coached him pretty consistently. Doc never really adjusted the offense until game 7, when, through Doc's instruction or not, the players (particularly pierce) started turning the corner on the pick and roll instead of allowing themselves to be pushed out to half court. Doc never really changed anything around in the Cleveland series, and I was disappointed in that. Still, Mike Brown is a good coach so there is no shame in being bested by him.

As for the Atlanta series, I thought the coaching battle was a push between Doc and Mike Woodson. It was pretty tough to tell though, since we had such superior talent. Perhaps Doc was out-coached, perhaps not.

As far as the regular season is concerned? I don't think coaching even plays much of a role. Its only in the playoffs, when the intensity kicks in, and each possession starts to matter a little bit more, that coaching guile really affects the outcome of a game.

Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 12:40:58 AM »

Offline FatMatt

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Outcoaching Flip Saunders in a playoff series,wow. Has that ever happened to Flip before?

Get by the Pistons and Flip, bring home #17 by beating either Phil's lakers or Pop's Spurs and I promise to not say anything negative about Doc until after training camp.


Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 12:43:50 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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If I've said it once I've said it a million times, Doc isn't a bad coach.

He may not be in the area of Jackson, Sloan, Brown, Pop, Karl and one or two others. But he is much better than some, better than others and about even with a few. He's someone around 8-12 best coach in the league, depending on how you see things. And since the guys who are better than he is are already employed, why would we think of replacing him?

Doc maddens me with some of his substitution rotations and other in game moves he makes. But he is an excellent coach when it comes to the coaching end of things not during gametime.

Doc is a good motivator proven by the fact that even his teams with bad talent never quit on him or were out of many games.

Doc did a superb preseason job creating team chemistry from the get go and instilling the feeling of team first that this team needed to succeed. He got three future HOFers to check the egos at the door and perform. And they have.

He did a great job developing young talent. Rondo, Oerk, Davis, Powe, Jefferson, West, Gomes, Mike Miller, and Ben Wallace are players Doc has coached that took significant ateps forward in their development while Doc coached them.

Doc is great with the press and will not bad mouth his players in the public media forum. That's classy and something a lot of coaches will not do.

Doc always seems to have a good pulse on the team and knows when to push them and when to back off.

Doc recognized he wasn't the best coach at teaching defense and through the front office hired Tom Thibodeau to assist him in teaching and coaching his defensive schemes.

Players for the most part like and respect Doc. That's very important for a coach when things start going not so well and the team needs to look to the coach for guidance.

He is one of the best coaches at diagramming a successful play right after timeouts.

There's probably hundreds of other things he is great at that I wouldn't even have a clue about.

IMHO, all these things that are done off the court are vastly more important in creating a championship team than when to use Eddie versus when to use Sam is. Doc's not a great coach because he isn't a great x's and o's type of guy but he is a good coach.

Does Doc deserve some love from those that have clear, obvious biases against hin and can't see him for being a good coach? Definitely.  

But Doc will only receive blame and ridicule when the Celtics lose and no credit whatsoever when they win. It can't be true. Doc does effect every game in some manner or another. And he's probably just responsible for any loss as he is for any win.

So let's cut the dude some slack and just enjoy where he and this team has taken us and where they will take us again.

Doc's a good guy, a good coach, and a hardworking guy. He shouldn't be sent packing just because people can't view him impartially and take into consideration the whole picture that occurs with him as coach.


Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2008, 03:58:21 AM »

Offline Bahku

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Doc: You and the C's got a great win on Saturday ... keep up the good work! (That's the best I can do)
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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 10:06:07 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Doc: You and the C's got a great win on Saturday ... keep up the good work! (That's the best I can do)
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Re: Show Doc some Love
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2008, 10:16:29 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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He's someone around 8-12 best coach in the league, depending on how you see things.

Any desire to name the 18 coaches that he's clearly better than?  Because I think you'd have a hard time doing so, especially after he was just outcoached by Mike Brown, and for certain games, by Mike Woodson. 

Quote
Doc ... will not bad mouth his players in the public media forum. That's classy and something a lot of coaches will not do.

That just isn't true.  He hasn't done that as much this season (although he's thrown BBD and Powe under the bus a few times), but he's taken enough shots at his players during his tenure here.

I agree with most of the rest of what you say, although I would point out that Doc's players haven't always liked him (Raef, Pierce, Payton, and numerous others have all had problems with him in the past, and KG, House, and Tony mentioned issues with Doc to the media this post-season) and he hasn't always been so great with chemistry (Ricky, Blount, and Marcus were sent out of town because of their effect on the locker room).  Doc is definitely a better coach on the off-the-court side of things, and the impact of that, as you say, is important.

In the playoffs, though, I think having an Xs-and-Os coach is of greater importance.  Some mediocre coaches can survive that because they have great talent (K.C. Jones), but it's definitely a skill that becomes amplified in the playoffs, where there are a lot more close games that hinge upon key decisions.

The worry is that Doc is a decent regular season coach -- where his "managing" skills are best suited -- but that his teams will never do quite as well as they could in the playoffs if they had a better game coach on the bench.  I think what we hope for is that the team continues to play games at the level they did in Game 3.  If so, in-game coaching is going to be irrelevant. 


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