Powe vs. Glenn Davis

[expobear]

Bill,

You must have been a coach or a scout or both in a previous life!   


How would you know so much about Powe, especially when he was in college, when you live in Boston?


Always enjoy your posts, especially those about Powe.

[Cman]

On a slightly different note, if Powe really injured his knee, the Powe vs. BBD debate is moot -- Cs would keep BBD. 

On a very different note, if Powe did injure his knee badly, I feel really bad for him.  This is a guy who has had all the tough knocks, and is about 3 months away from the big payday.  I can't think of a pro player who has been more deserving of a big payday than Leon (but admittedly I don't know the personal history of every b-ball player out there).

[expobear]

On a slightly different note, if Powe really injured his knee, the Powe vs. BBD debate is moot -- Cs would keep BBD. 

On a very different note, if Powe did injure his knee badly, I feel really bad for him.  This is a guy who has had all the tough knocks, and is about 3 months away from the big payday.  I can't think of a pro player who has been more deserving of a big payday than Leon (but admittedly I don't know the personal history of every b-ball player out there).

I'm kind of concerned about Powe's injury. After having a couple of surgeries in high school/college, anything related to the knee is a little worrisome.  Hopefully it's nothing serious.

I think Powe's play during the week that he started has inspired Davis. Competition is heating up! 

[Chris]

I think you over-estimate how much time the last guy on the depth chart gets when it comes to reps in practice of face time with the coaches...but it is definitely beneficial to be around the highest level talent - so that is a plus.

But never, ever underestimate the impact of being able to have a fully expanded and diverse role in which to apply your game - Glen Davis had an extra year of being "the man" in the NCAA, whic allowed him to explore his game in almost any way he saw fit.

There are advantages to both scenarios, which is why I said I put Davis and Powe at about the same point in terms of development.

I think "development" is a very tough word to use, since it's so general.  But just to throw a definition on it, lets say "development" means coming closer to reaching your maximum potential.

By that definition, I would actually say Davis is ahead of Powe.  Davis came into the league, much further along in the mental parts of the game, and fundamentals than Powe did.  Powe came in very raw (despite the numbers he put up in college), and has come a long way since coming into the league, but still has a long way to go to reach his potential. 

Part of this is the fact that Davis, due to his average athleticism and size (Powe is an exceptional athlete, and has more length), simply had a lower cieling. 

I think both of them will continue to improve, but I just see Powe having much more room for growth, as he continues to improve on his fundamentals and understanding of the game, while Davis is to the point, where he is really just learning new tricks, and trying to perfect what he already does.

[expobear]

I think you over-estimate how much time the last guy on the depth chart gets when it comes to reps in practice of face time with the coaches...but it is definitely beneficial to be around the highest level talent - so that is a plus.

But never, ever underestimate the impact of being able to have a fully expanded and diverse role in which to apply your game - Glen Davis had an extra year of being "the man" in the NCAA, whic allowed him to explore his game in almost any way he saw fit.

There are advantages to both scenarios, which is why I said I put Davis and Powe at about the same point in terms of development.

I think "development" is a very tough word to use, since it's so general.  But just to throw a definition on it, lets say "development" means coming closer to reaching your maximum potential.

By that definition, I would actually say Davis is ahead of Powe.  Davis came into the league, much further along in the mental parts of the game, and fundamentals than Powe did.  Powe came in very raw (despite the numbers he put up in college), and has come a long way since coming into the league, but still has a long way to go to reach his potential. 

Part of this is the fact that Davis, due to his average athleticism and size (Powe is an exceptional athlete, and has more length), simply had a lower cieling. 

I think both of them will continue to improve, but I just see Powe having much more room for growth, as he continues to improve on his fundamentals and understanding of the game, while Davis is to the point, where he is really just learning new tricks, and trying to perfect what he already does.

Chris,

I'm surprised at your assessment of Powe.  I always thought you were a Davis guy through and through and that his potential is unlimited while you thought Powe is just a one dimensional player, lucky to be on an NBA team.

I beginning to like your posts more and more....

[Bankshot]

On a slightly different note, if Powe really injured his knee, the Powe vs. BBD debate is moot -- Cs would keep BBD. 

On a very different note, if Powe did injure his knee badly, I feel really bad for him.  This is a guy who has had all the tough knocks, and is about 3 months away from the big payday.  I can't think of a pro player who has been more deserving of a big payday than Leon (but admittedly I don't know the personal history of every b-ball player out there).

I think it would be BBD as well.  I feel that way even more so after Davis' poor shooting night.  Why?  Because when his offense is off or when the matchup is so that he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, he can do so many other things to help the team win.  When Powe has trouble with matchups and he has trouble scoring and sometimes rebounding, he's pretty much useless because he gives you nothing else.

All that being said, I still love Powe on this team and it would suck big time for him to be hurt worse than they are letting on.  The guy works hard and I'd like to see him stick in the league for a long time.

Get well soon, Show!

[Chris]

I think you over-estimate how much time the last guy on the depth chart gets when it comes to reps in practice of face time with the coaches...but it is definitely beneficial to be around the highest level talent - so that is a plus.

But never, ever underestimate the impact of being able to have a fully expanded and diverse role in which to apply your game - Glen Davis had an extra year of being "the man" in the NCAA, whic allowed him to explore his game in almost any way he saw fit.

There are advantages to both scenarios, which is why I said I put Davis and Powe at about the same point in terms of development.

I think "development" is a very tough word to use, since it's so general.  But just to throw a definition on it, lets say "development" means coming closer to reaching your maximum potential.

By that definition, I would actually say Davis is ahead of Powe.  Davis came into the league, much further along in the mental parts of the game, and fundamentals than Powe did.  Powe came in very raw (despite the numbers he put up in college), and has come a long way since coming into the league, but still has a long way to go to reach his potential. 

Part of this is the fact that Davis, due to his average athleticism and size (Powe is an exceptional athlete, and has more length), simply had a lower cieling. 

I think both of them will continue to improve, but I just see Powe having much more room for growth, as he continues to improve on his fundamentals and understanding of the game, while Davis is to the point, where he is really just learning new tricks, and trying to perfect what he already does.

Chris,

I'm surprised at your assessment of Powe.  I always thought you were a Davis guy through and through and that his potential is unlimited while you thought Powe is just a one dimensional player, lucky to be on an NBA team.

I beginning to like your posts more and more....

I really think people get the wrong idea about me, because I have come to the defense of Davis so many times (just like I have come to the defense of Scal), when I felt like people were going way over the top in their criticisms of him, ignoring the positives he brings.  And of course that was compounded by me bringing down some of the over the top expectations of Powe, when people seemed to ignore his weaknesses.

I see both of these guys as what they are.  Davis is a very good roleplayer, who plays excellent defense, and does some nice things withing the offensive flow.  Even though his shot may be a little up and down, overall he is a very consistent player in the rest of his game.  Powe is an explosive player, who is still learning some aspects of the game, but has tremendous potential.  He still has a lot of holes to fill before he is any more than an energy guy off the bench who provides inside scoring and rebounding, but he has the talent to be an impact starter in this league, if he continues progressing. 

They both bring very different things to the table, and also have major holes right now, but they also are very important players on this team.

[D Dub]

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

[expobear]

On a slightly different note, if Powe really injured his knee, the Powe vs. BBD debate is moot -- Cs would keep BBD. 

On a very different note, if Powe did injure his knee badly, I feel really bad for him.  This is a guy who has had all the tough knocks, and is about 3 months away from the big payday.  I can't think of a pro player who has been more deserving of a big payday than Leon (but admittedly I don't know the personal history of every b-ball player out there).

I think it would be BBD as well.  I feel that way even more so after Davis' poor shooting night.  Why?  Because when his offense is off or when the matchup is so that he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, he can do so many other things to help the team win.  When Powe has trouble with matchups and he has trouble scoring and sometimes rebounding, he's pretty much useless because he gives you nothing else.

All that being said, I still love Powe on this team and it would suck big time for him to be hurt worse than they are letting on.  The guy works hard and I'd like to see him stick in the league for a long time.

Get well soon, Show!

I think I can say that Powe probably has had 3 or 4 games in his career where he has been totally useless. And he probably played under 10 minutes in those games. Again, if given the chance to play, Powe can be a very productive player off the bench or even in a starting role. I'm not sure what more Powe has to do to convince people that he can play this game.

[expobear]

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

DDub

Nice post!  TP!

[budMovin]

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

Noble point, but I have to disagree. Think of Powe's big games and who they played against. Game 2 of the Finals against a Bynum-less Lakers. 20 points against a Ben Wallace-less/Slow Ilgauskas led Cavs. 23 Against Haslem on the heat and 30 against Darrel Arthur? Powe shows tremendous hustle (as does Big Baby) and is great at getting down and dirty for the offensive rebounds and tip ins.

The difference is that Powe relies on circumstances, such as loose rebounds and sloppy defense, while Baby is someone who you can run your offense through. He has a great midrange shot that stretches the defense, that goes along with an immovable body in the paint(3rd heaviest player in the league behind Shaq and Yao)..and his passing is his best asset! How many times has Powe made a sweet dump off to Perk or KG?

Powe is a perfect niche kind of player who can frustrate and outwork other bigs; however, I see that Baby has the potential to be a mainstay on the court.

Powe has the better resume at this point but I just think that Baby's IQ and uniqueness (sheer strength and gentle touch) gives him the higher ceiling.

[EJPLAYA]

 

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

Noble point, but I have to disagree. Think of Powe's big games and who they played against. Game 2 of the Finals against a Bynum-less Lakers. 20 points against a Ben Wallace-less/Slow Ilgauskas led Cavs. 23 Against Haslem on the heat and 30 against Darrel Arthur? Powe shows tremendous hustle (as does Big Baby) and is great at getting down and dirty for the offensive rebounds and tip ins.

The difference is that Powe relies on circumstances, such as loose rebounds and sloppy defense, while Baby is someone who you can run your offense through. He has a great midrange shot that stretches the defense, that goes along with an immovable body in the paint(3rd heaviest player in the league behind Shaq and Yao)..and his passing is his best asset! How many times has Powe made a sweet dump off to Perk or KG?

Powe is a perfect niche kind of player who can frustrate and outwork other bigs; however, I see that Baby has the potential to be a mainstay on the court.

Powe has the better resume at this point but I just think that Baby's IQ and uniqueness (sheer strength and gentle touch) gives him the higher ceiling.

Uhhhh?!?!? Great?!You have got to be kidding. At best it is average, but looking at the body of his work since he has been here it is closer to below average. One month of hitting that shot at about 45-50% out of two years and he is now a GREAT midrange shooter?! If you want to be taken seriously you have got to stop exaggerating so wildy. Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Eddie House, Allan Houston, Steve Smith, Reggie Miller... THOSE are great shooters. BBD can't carry their jocks.

Is that you John Hamilton?! (BBD's agent)Come on now. Stop trying to pump your client up to get paid over Powe. It isn't working...

[budMovin]

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

Noble point, but I have to disagree. Think of Powe's big games and who they played against. Game 2 of the Finals against a Bynum-less Lakers. 20 points against a Ben Wallace-less/Slow Ilgauskas led Cavs. 23 Against Haslem on the heat and 30 against Darrel Arthur? Powe shows tremendous hustle (as does Big Baby) and is great at getting down and dirty for the offensive rebounds and tip ins.

The difference is that Powe relies on circumstances, such as loose rebounds and sloppy defense, while Baby is someone who you can run your offense through. He has a great midrange shot that stretches the defense, that goes along with an immovable body in the paint(3rd heaviest player in the league behind Shaq and Yao)..and his passing is his best asset! How many times has Powe made a sweet dump off to Perk or KG?

Powe is a perfect niche kind of player who can frustrate and outwork other bigs; however, I see that Baby has the potential to be a mainstay on the court.

Powe has the better resume at this point but I just think that Baby's IQ and uniqueness (sheer strength and gentle touch) gives him the higher ceiling.

Uhhhh?!?!? Great?!You have got to be kidding. At best it is average, but looking at the body of his work since he has been here it is closer to below average. One month of hitting that shot at about 45-50% out of two years and he is now a GREAT midrange shooter?! If you want to be taken seriously you have got to stop exaggerating so wildy. Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Eddie House, Allan Houston, Steve Smith, Reggie Miller... THOSE are great shooters. BBD can't carry their jocks.

Is that you John Hamilton?! (BBD's agent)Come on now. Stop trying to pump your client up to get paid over Powe. It isn't working...

Great for a low post player ie a PF/C, which stretches the defense because it brings other bigs out to defend the shot...Which gives KG/Perk/Powe 1v1 down low. Oh and he has  been hitting them with a good consistency in the second half of the season. Lets see Powe do anything beyond 3 feet from the basket.

When did I say he was one of the greatest shooters of his generation? I didn't mean to infuriate you as evident by the caps and exclamation points. More of a from my perspective post.

[Atzar]

As much as I love Baby, I have got to go with the Powe Show here.

Effective low-post scorers are much harder to come by than bigs who can shoot the midrange J. 

How many other teams have a guy coming off the bench with ability to take over the paint to the tune of 20 or 30 on any given night?  I'll never forget his Finals Game 2 explosion.  He single handedly won us that game with his energy off the bench.

IMHO, Leon is the toughest player in the league and embodies the Celtic tradition through his tenacity and work ethic.  I would like to see him stay in green for the duration of his career.  Unfortunetly, of the two Powe seems more likely to get the big pay day which = less likely to be back next year..

Noble point, but I have to disagree. Think of Powe's big games and who they played against. Game 2 of the Finals against a Bynum-less Lakers. 20 points against a Ben Wallace-less/Slow Ilgauskas led Cavs. 23 Against Haslem on the heat and 30 against Darrel Arthur? Powe shows tremendous hustle (as does Big Baby) and is great at getting down and dirty for the offensive rebounds and tip ins.

The difference is that Powe relies on circumstances, such as loose rebounds and sloppy defense, while Baby is someone who you can run your offense through. He has a great midrange shot that stretches the defense, that goes along with an immovable body in the paint(3rd heaviest player in the league behind Shaq and Yao)..and his passing is his best asset! How many times has Powe made a sweet dump off to Perk or KG?

Powe is a perfect niche kind of player who can frustrate and outwork other bigs; however, I see that Baby has the potential to be a mainstay on the court.

Powe has the better resume at this point but I just think that Baby's IQ and uniqueness (sheer strength and gentle touch) gives him the higher ceiling.

You can't fault Powe for having good games when he's supposed to have good games...

Also, I disagree completely with the notion that the offense can be run through Baby.  My biggest problem with him is that he's another body on the offensive end who relies on somebody else - be it Rondo, Pierce or Marbury - to create for him.  With the exception of an occasional drive to the basket in which he turns it over if he takes more than two dribbles, he has zero ability to create his own shot.  You'd think the somebody with his combination of bulk and relative quickness could dominate in the post, but he has no post game.  If you give Powe the ball and tell him to score, he has an idea of what to do next.  If you do the same for Baby, he looks like a fish out of water.

I actually like BBD a lot.  I think he's a very good player defensively, despite his lack of length and hops.  But offense isn't his strong suit.  He can play a role on that side of the court:  like Moore, he has the ability to knock down the open 15-foot jumper.  That's all that I'm comfortable with him doing right now.

[LB3533]

With all due respect, I think you may need to due a little more research into how the game is played...no team game plans away from playing in the post - its a fundamental necessity.

This post runs counter to every professional coaching and team management philosophy in existence...teams don't run post plays when they don't have post players - every team is looking for them.

With all due respect, because the rarity of post players in the NBA, no NBA team in today's NBA gameplans their defense to stop post players.

What do most good defensive teams gameplan to do?

Stop the drive. Pack the paint. Do their best to stop penetration from the elite PG's and penetration from slashing wings.

Today's NBA is dominated by dynamic wings and dynamic point guards.

There are probably two Centers left in the NBA who play like real Centers: Yao and Al Jefferson.

The rest of the post players in the NBA are freaking wing players who post up other wing players.

NBA teams are not searching for post scoring from Center/PF anymore they are searching it from the wing spot or they are looking for a super stud point guard.

Why? Because today's NBA caters to the smaller type players, the quicker, the faster, the more flashy and dynamic.

The old, "pure" NBA era is gone. Days of McHale, Hakeem Olajuwon are over.

Post scoring centers of the future are going to be in the mold of Shaq and Dwight Howard: sheer physical ability and not so much skill.