Hooray for Optionality!!

[Roy H.]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

[Who]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

I agree.

When they are up earning $70mil in a 3 years time, the cap will have increased as well. The First Apron is $210mil now. It will likely be $240mil then (going up about 5% per annum, so roughly $10mil per annum added = $30mil extra).

So the Jays at $70 by 2 are $140mil/$240mil which is 58% rather than 70%. It is still a big number but smaller than is being presented by Brad and by the media. It continues to leave $100mil for a supporting cast around them.

[keevsnick]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

[Roy H.]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

[ozgod]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

I agree.

When they are up earning $70mil in a 3 years time, the cap will have increased as well. The First Apron is $210mil now. It will likely be $240mil then (going up about 5% per annum, so roughly $10mil per annum added = $30mil extra).

So the Jays at $70 by 2 are $140mil/$240mil which is 58% rather than 70%. It is still a big number but smaller than is being presented by Brad and by the media. It continues to leave $100mil for a supporting cast around them.

Just for clarity, I think $70/$240m is 58% of the first apron, and 73% of the salary cap (which in 3 years is $191m, and yes the first apron would be $243m). It depends on if you see your denominator as the first apron or the salary cap. The way they negotiate these contracts, they generally tend to escalate annually to make sure they are ~35% of the cap (for a supermax) or ~30% for a max (though some players and front offices are willing to front-load them).

The first apron is typically 25% or so over the salary cap, so two supermaxes is 70% of 125% which is 56% of "spendable money" if you used the 1st apron as your hard limit. So that leaves 55% of the cap (or 44% of your space under the first apron) for your other 13 players.

Yes this is what the NBA has reduced us to...doing math instead of dreaming about championships 

[ozgod]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

Actually, do you know some of those offers? I'm curious to work out the financial implications of those and see if they would have been better for us than taking in Mr Druggo. Mannix said "a good team made a better offer" but he refused to name it. Apparently Jaylen didn't want to go there and the Cs wanted to respect where he wanted to go, while still making sure they were ok with the return.

[Roy H.]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

Actually, do you know some of those offers? I'm curious to work out the financial implications of those and see if they would have been better for us than taking in Mr Druggo. Mannix said "a good team made a better offer" but he refused to name it. Apparently Jaylen didn't want to go there and the Cs wanted to respect where he wanted to go, while still making sure they were ok with the return.

One was Reid + Bridges + picks, with Bridges obviously being tradeable to PHX for Allen + O'Neale. + picks.   I'm pretty sure that that one would have gotten us a decent size trade exception as well.

[ozgod]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

Actually, do you know some of those offers? I'm curious to work out the financial implications of those and see if they would have been better for us than taking in Mr Druggo. Mannix said "a good team made a better offer" but he refused to name it. Apparently Jaylen didn't want to go there and the Cs wanted to respect where he wanted to go, while still making sure they were ok with the return.

One was Reid + Bridges + picks, with Bridges obviously being tradeable to PHX for Allen + O'Neale. + picks.   I'm pretty sure that that one would have gotten us a decent size trade exception as well.

Yes this was the one I had heard about...where apparently Jaylen made it clear he didn't want to go there. And apparently the Cs wanted Brandon Miller + filler instead of Bridges. It's hard to tell whether the dealbreaker was Jaylen's posture, or Miller being excluded. Maybe at the time they didn't want to try to figure out who might want the wifebeater so they went for the druggo instead 

[Celtics2021]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

Actually, do you know some of those offers? I'm curious to work out the financial implications of those and see if they would have been better for us than taking in Mr Druggo. Mannix said "a good team made a better offer" but he refused to name it. Apparently Jaylen didn't want to go there and the Cs wanted to respect where he wanted to go, while still making sure they were ok with the return.

One was Reid + Bridges + picks, with Bridges obviously being tradeable to PHX for Allen + O'Neale. + picks.   I'm pretty sure that that one would have gotten us a decent size trade exception as well.

The Charlotte-Phoenix deal was Bridges + 1st round pick and 2nd round pick for Allen, O?Neale, and a more distant 1st round pick.  Somehow on the board the picks sent with Bridges have been forgotten.  Charlotte sent out more in draft compensation than they received back in that deal.

[Roy H.]

I agree Roy. But as Brad said, the Jays were eating up 70% of our cap and that makes it hard to put competitive guys around them to make the team competitive.

The cap part is right, but the cap isn't a realistic spending budget for an NBA team.

The Jays took up almost exactly 50% of the $209 million first apron hard cap.  That leaves roughly $105 million to fill out the roster.  To me, that's not unreasonable.  To me, the 70% thing is just a talking point, particularly since Paul George accounts for almost as large of a percentage as JB did.for 2/3 of the relevant time frame.

People are looking at the George vs Jaylen contract all wrong. Yes, George makes almost as much as Jaylen. But you have to look at it as sort of like the Holiday/Simons trade. Its REALLY hard to get of large contracts, it's nearly impossible to do all at once, you have to do it in stages. With Holiay/Simons they were able to first get o two years then later lip Simons to get under the tax. With George they save a year off the contract, three years if you consider they probably had to extend Jaylen if they kept him, and now as soon as next offseason he's a movable expiring contract.

So yes, they don't save much money immediately but they have a potential to save a lot as soon as next summer, whereas if you keep Jaylen you're really committing to him long term. They valued the "optionality"+ picks over whatever the difference between Jaylen vs George is this year

Except there were other offers that included more reasonable contracts coming back.

Actually, do you know some of those offers? I'm curious to work out the financial implications of those and see if they would have been better for us than taking in Mr Druggo. Mannix said "a good team made a better offer" but he refused to name it. Apparently Jaylen didn't want to go there and the Cs wanted to respect where he wanted to go, while still making sure they were ok with the return.

One was Reid + Bridges + picks, with Bridges obviously being tradeable to PHX for Allen + O'Neale. + picks.   I'm pretty sure that that one would have gotten us a decent size trade exception as well.

The Charlotte-Phoenix deal was Bridges + 1st round pick and 2nd round pick for Allen, O?Neale, and a more distant 1st round pick.  Somehow on the board the picks sent with Bridges have been forgotten.  Charlotte sent out more in draft compensation than they received back in that deal.

I would rather have a 2033 first rounder from Phoenix than a 2029 first rounder from Charlotte.

[Phantom255x]

There were rumors the Wolves offered Reid + Gobert + pick(s) for Jaylen before they ultimately went and got Lamelo Ball