Did JB make the players around him better?

[lbgreen33]

Okay, so this is finally sinking in and I really like Jaylen Brown, but I finally asked myself this question.  I don?t see many people asking it, I keep hearing analytics, which I guess is inferring it.
But, the bottom line is, Brad did not feel JB made the players around him better? I have heard my whole life, I true star makes the players around him better. Bird is the first person who comes to mind, he could score, but he made everyone on the his team look good when they played together.
So, maybe, we are looking at this all wrong, maybe yes his contract was big, but maybe Brad felt, I want players that make each other better, plain and simple.
I certainly saw glimpses of JB doing that with Porzingas!! Maybe Jru rubbed off on him that year, but he definitely goes into the one man band way too much in the last couple years.
Just a take on this the maybe was much bigger than we realized.

[Jiri Welsch]

In the most layman?s terms I can think of: At a certain point, at its simplest, the goal is to put the ball in the basket on possessions. Brown was good at doing that for himself. Below average at helping others doing it.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

No. He never really did, but not every good player does.

JB had a knack for being a reliable scoring engine for his team in stretches, with the ability to get hot and go on a 7-10 point run by himself. That's still a helpful player, but it never seemed like he was in sync with the other players the way Tatum is.

And he never really made his teammates better on defense. He could made individual plays - steals and fast break dunks, individual physical defense against good wings, etc. But it felt like the team defense would break down around him more often than other guys.

Again. Not a discredit to him. That's still a useful player, and he got the most out of that ability last year that he possibly could.

[Goldstar88]

Depends which version of JB you are getting. Was it a night where he was a black hole and turning the ball over 4+ times or one that he wanted to get his teammates involved and gave the team 6+ assists. Thing with Brown that was so frustrating was the lack of consistency with his play.

[jambr380]

In terms of pure passing, he has gotten much better at the drive and kick over the last couple of years. That collapses the defense and creates open shots on the perimeter for the team's shooters. As a creator setting up the offense, he often looked for his own shot and would often only pass if it definitely wasn't there.

He does have some gravity out there, which led to double teams and giving his teammates a better shot. But he doesn't have anywhere near the level of gravity or team shot creation as somebody like Tatum. You know, those passes you can't even see coming through your tv screen even though you have a view of the entire court. That part of his game just never came.

He also doesn't have that same quick, smart decision making that makes White so valuable. It's not flashy, but that level of connectivity creates easy looks for teammates.

[jpotter33]

Nope.

Great 1 on 1 star-level player that can get his, albeit inefficiently. Average to slightly above average defender who can turn it up when needed individually, but has historically been a very poor defender.

I think he clearly did not make the players around him better, but that's not all that matters in the grand scheme of things. However, for the Celtics, that fact combined with his contract/cost and his personality and fit concerns with the rest of the team seemed to be too much for them to bare any longer.

[Roy H.]

Anybody who watched our embarrassment of a roster win 56 games last season knows the answer to this question.

[Kernewek]

Anybody who watched our embarrassment of a roster win 56 games last season knows the answer to this question.

This is the main wrinkle, I think. This season was supposed to be a wash and the team ended up massively overachieving (or playing up to their potential, if you prefer), and Brown was a major part of that.

Now, whether he makes the guys around him better in a +/- way is a different question to that, and that seems to be the focus of the conversation,

[Roy H.]

Anybody who watched our embarrassment of a roster win 56 games last season knows the answer to this question.

This is the main wrinkle, I think. This season was supposed to be a wash and the team ended up massively overachieving (or playing up to their potential, if you prefer), and Brown was a major part of that.

Now, whether he makes the guys around him better in a +/- way is a different question to that, and that seems to be the focus of the conversation,

Either he aided in his teammates being better, or he is so individually talented that he can carry the team"s deadweight to the point where we barely noticed the loss of Tatum, Jrue, KP, Horford and Kornet.

[snively]

Anybody who watched our embarrassment of a roster win 56 games last season knows the answer to this question.

This is the main wrinkle, I think. This season was supposed to be a wash and the team ended up massively overachieving (or playing up to their potential, if you prefer), and Brown was a major part of that.

Now, whether he makes the guys around him better in a +/- way is a different question to that, and that seems to be the focus of the conversation,

I think JB looks at the success and sees himself as the main factor where Brad and Joe looked at their emerging role players and gave them the lion's share of the credit.

[Who]

I thought Jaylen made the players around him better last season because it was a less talented team but on a stronger team he does a lot less to help his teammates.

The reason why he helped his teammates last year was because he allowed them to play roles within their skill-level. By taking a high usage high volume scoring role, he allowed those more limited guys to stay within role player roles where they could still be effective.

Without Jaylen doing that, those role players would have had to extend their games beyond what they were able to do. Their offense (particularly their efficiencies) would have gradually declined / collapsed and the team would have been much worse off.

Now when you pair Jaylen with more talented offensive players, we do not see this same thing. Instead it is more about his middling outside shot, his limited ball-handling, his okay but not great playmaking, and his high turnovers. Those aspects of his game limit how well he interacts with other high end players.

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On defense, I think he helps by not being a liability but he doesn't have large added value. There is value in being well rounded as a man defender and opposing teams being unable to exploit you. We see this year after year in the playoffs where teams are picking on a single guy. You can't do that with Jaylen. That is not nothing. That helps your teammates on D that teams can't do that.

He also has above average value as a stopper particularly on certain types of players. Most famously on Luka Doncic. Jaylen's size, speed, strength was the perfect match to Luka to deny Luka his usual advantages.

His team D is not as tight as you want but it is not that bad either. He is still a positive influence overall on D who helps his team / teammates.

But ... it is a solid-to-good amount rather than a high amount of helping / improving the guys around you.

[Who]

No. He never really did, but not every good player does.

JB had a knack for being a reliable scoring engine for his team in stretches, with the ability to get hot and go on a 7-10 point run by himself. That's still a helpful player, but it never seemed like he was in sync with the other players the way Tatum is.

And he never really made his teammates better on defense. He could made individual plays - steals and fast break dunks, individual physical defense against good wings, etc. But it felt like the team defense would break down around him more often than other guys.

Again. Not a discredit to him. That's still a useful player, and he got the most out of that ability last year that he possibly could.

Similar to Dominique Wilkins

[slamtheking]

Anybody who watched our embarrassment of a roster win 56 games last season knows the answer to this question.

This is the main wrinkle, I think. This season was supposed to be a wash and the team ended up massively overachieving (or playing up to their potential, if you prefer), and Brown was a major part of that.

Now, whether he makes the guys around him better in a +/- way is a different question to that, and that seems to be the focus of the conversation,

Either he aided in his teammates being better, or he is so individually talented that he can carry the team"s deadweight to the point where we barely noticed the loss of Tatum, Jrue, KP, Horford and Kornet.

for me, this is the obvious point that shoots down all that analytical garbage about him being a negative player on the court.  He also did it without a real second banana with White having a garbage year, Simons having a mediocre year and everyone else but Q having a challenge to show consistent improvement

[Who]

I thought Jaylen made the players around him better last season because it was a less talented team but on a stronger team he does a lot less to help his teammates.

The reason why he helped his teammates last year was because he allowed them to play roles within their skill-level. By taking a high usage high volume scoring role, he allowed those more limited guys to stay within role player roles where they could still be effective.

Without Jaylen doing that, those role players would have had to extend their games beyond what they were able to do. Their offense (particularly their efficiencies) would have gradually declined / collapsed and the team would have been much worse off.

There was statistical study Kevin Pelton did years ago (maybe 15 years ago now) on Allen Iverson that argued AI had this effect when he played with less talent AI made them more efficient by taking on more responsibility offensively even thought AI himself was an inefficient scorer. That he managed to boost the efficiency of guys around them.

The study also looked at Vernon Maxwell on the 1994 Rockets and noted the same thing. Mad Max was streaky shooter with an itchy trigger finger but HOU's other role players were more spot up shooters who could not create their own offense. Max allowed them to stay within their shooting profile by taking more difficult shots himself. It allowed his teammates to stay efficient but made him look worse because he was more inefficient individually. Yet, it was still an overall positive. Just not easily picked up by looking at individual player's TS% / scoring efficiency.

Jaylen accomplished this for the Celtics last season when he was paired with so many limited offensive teammates (the young wings, Hauser, Queta, Garza). And to a lesser extent D White & Pritchard (good but not great offensive players).