Author Topic: Let's put ourselves in Brad's shoes for a second, why would he have done this?  (Read 1160 times)

feckless and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online ozgod

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20004
  • Tommy Points: 1635
To try and understand the why, and knowing that Brad hasn't given us his reasons yet. Let's assume that Brad is a rational person, he has a track record of making considered, data driven trades, where he gives himself an out if things don't work out. He doesn't generally swing for the fences or do stupid things.

So as an intellectual exercise, if we were to speculate on why he did this, let's put ourselves in his shoes. Rather than saying he's crazy, let's assume he's rational and made a decision based on reason. What factors would need to be true for him to:

a) decide Jaylen, who has been here for 10 season and won Finals MVP when we won a championship in 2024, needed to be traded; and

b) accept a return of Paul George, 2 firsts and 2 seconds? Was this the best offer they got?


My 2c is that it's easier to answer a) then b). There must have been a relationship breakdown either between JB and the front office or JB and JT, or they foresaw an alpha dog battle similar to what happened in 2018-29. Otherwise why trade him? Or were there other reasons, like fit issues, or they were finally convinced his on-off numbers meant he wouldn't be as big a net loss as people might think? Or did he think JB would be disruptive in the locker room?

Then the next is why they took the PG13 deal over other deals. Here are the comparative contracts both are on. Very similar, both will cost $57m this season (after PG13 trade kicker), PG13 has a player option next season for $56m, and is a UFA in 2028-29. Jaylen is on $57m this season, $61m next season and $64m and is eligible for a 2 year, $141m ($70m a season) extension this season, increasing to a 5 year, $325m extension if he reaches free agency in 2029-30. How much, if any, did this factor in Brad's thinking?

(click to enlarge)


Thoughts?

Edit: Added Spotrac screenshot
« Last Edit: Today at 04:23:21 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8838
  • Tommy Points: 861
I think a is easy. Brown is unhappy, on a megadeal, very flawed, and giving him the 70 aav contract he's eligible for is untenable.

But b is really tough. I just struggle to wrap my head around the idea that no other team in the league wanted to beat this package. It really does seem like basically nobody wanted this guy.

Offline SparzWizard

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20280
  • Tommy Points: 1184
Idk, Brad looked like Nico Harrison with this move.

He should've just went all in for Giannis. Send them Brown, Hugo, and Baylor and picks.

We would instantly contend.

Instead, we get a washed Paul George and some picks while JT is in his prime. He also made the 76ers a lot stronger, a top 3 team in the East behind New York and Indiana. It makes no sense. Why didn't he just swing for Trey Murphy and NOLA picks instead


#FireJoe
#JokeMazulla 2026
#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) 2022 - 2026
I am the Master of Panic.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4106
  • Tommy Points: 420
Jaylen is way overrated by fans and is a net negative asset.  He is due a major extension that will pay him $73 million and his return will be even lower when that kicks in.  There are lots of advanced analytics that say he is an average player at best and also things like he reduces the projected amount score by EACH teammate he plays with by 4 points a game.  We went 9-2 without him last year and overall that is about the win percentage has in games where he doesn't play then when he does.  This is basically scratching the surface and you can also see that he has shot us out of the playoffs two years in a row.

And if that sounds harsh, do you know who else thinks that way?  Every GM in the league for the most part.  We were OPENLY shopping him and that was the best offer.  There was no bidding war.  Our team is sick of him and knows the truth about him.  It's not like Luka where nobody knew he was available.  EVERYBODY knew he was available.  I will say if anything in analytics is wrong we might be slightly overvaluing Hugo Gonzalez but even then....he might really be that good!  Like I am more sure that Jaylen Brown is fool's gold, especially in the aprons era of cap management where Brown is basically poison, but it's pretty close.

Offline SparzWizard

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20280
  • Tommy Points: 1184
Jaylen is way overrated by fans and is a net negative asset.  He is due a major extension that will pay him $73 million and his return will be even lower when that kicks in.  There are lots of advanced analytics that say he is an average player at best and also things like he reduces the projected amount score by EACH teammate he plays with by 4 points a game.  We went 9-2 without him last year and overall that is about the win percentage has in games where he doesn't play then when he does.  This is basically scratching the surface and you can also see that he has shot us out of the playoffs two years in a row.

And if that sounds harsh, do you know who else thinks that way?  Every GM in the league for the most part.  We were OPENLY shopping him and that was the best offer.  There was no bidding war.  Our team is sick of him and knows the truth about him.  It's not like Luka where nobody knew he was available.  EVERYBODY knew he was available.  I will say if anything in analytics is wrong we might be slightly overvaluing Hugo Gonzalez but even then....he might really be that good!  Like I am more sure that Jaylen Brown is fool's gold, especially in the aprons era of cap management where Brown is basically poison, but it's pretty close.

Watch the apologists argue with you that he was Finals MVP blah blah.

Yeah I wanted him gone, but just upset that the package received was such an underwhelming package. I thought Brad could've done better


#FireJoe
#JokeMazulla 2026
#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) 2022 - 2026
I am the Master of Panic.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4106
  • Tommy Points: 420
Jaylen is way overrated by fans and is a net negative asset.  He is due a major extension that will pay him $73 million and his return will be even lower when that kicks in.  There are lots of advanced analytics that say he is an average player at best and also things like he reduces the projected amount score by EACH teammate he plays with by 4 points a game.  We went 9-2 without him last year and overall that is about the win percentage has in games where he doesn't play then when he does.  This is basically scratching the surface and you can also see that he has shot us out of the playoffs two years in a row.

And if that sounds harsh, do you know who else thinks that way?  Every GM in the league for the most part.  We were OPENLY shopping him and that was the best offer.  There was no bidding war.  Our team is sick of him and knows the truth about him.  It's not like Luka where nobody knew he was available.  EVERYBODY knew he was available.  I will say if anything in analytics is wrong we might be slightly overvaluing Hugo Gonzalez but even then....he might really be that good!  Like I am more sure that Jaylen Brown is fool's gold, especially in the aprons era of cap management where Brown is basically poison, but it's pretty close.

Watch the apologists argue with you that he was Finals MVP blah blah.

Yeah I wanted him gone, but just upset that the package received was such an underwhelming package. I thought Brad could've done better

Yeah but again, the package was available to everybody.  Every GM knew we were pulling the trigger this summer.  NOBODY stepped in to beat THAT.  That is his market.  And it's only going to get lower when he's making $73 million.  Fans overrate Jaylen but that is what his value is

Offline radiohead

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8466
  • Tommy Points: 1452
A) JB needed to be traded because they were never going to offer him the extension. Knowing how sensitive JB is, Brad really had no choice but to trade him now, rather than deal with a disgruntled JB throughout the season. I think JB having ?no filter? during his streams added to this decision. Maybe he really became too difficult to handle. And maybe his attitude (i?m the best two way player in the league, etc) rubbed other teams the wrong way thus resulting to a lower than expected trade value.

B) This is where it gets tricky. The PG haul tells me maybe we were not even close to landing Giannis. Perhaps Milwaukee did their due diligence and realized that JB wouldn?t bring them the future picks that they wanted. They made it appear that they were interested in JB to get more out of Miami, and they certainly did! Do i think we got a good haul for JB? Certainly not. But I?m wearing green tinted glasses. Us fans value JB more than how other teams perceive him. I get where Brad is coming from? i just did not think that this is all we can get for JB. I just hope Brad has more moves in order to somehow make us still contenders (Trey Murphy?). I would not want to waste even a single year of JT?s prime.

Offline Kernewek

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4833
  • Tommy Points: 304
  • International Superstar
Jaylen is way overrated by fans and is a net negative asset.  He is due a major extension that will pay him $73 million and his return will be even lower when that kicks in.  There are lots of advanced analytics that say he is an average player at best and also things like he reduces the projected amount score by EACH teammate he plays with by 4 points a game.  We went 9-2 without him last year and overall that is about the win percentage has in games where he doesn't play then when he does.  This is basically scratching the surface and you can also see that he has shot us out of the playoffs two years in a row.

And if that sounds harsh, do you know who else thinks that way?  Every GM in the league for the most part.  We were OPENLY shopping him and that was the best offer.  There was no bidding war.  Our team is sick of him and knows the truth about him.  It's not like Luka where nobody knew he was available.  EVERYBODY knew he was available.  I will say if anything in analytics is wrong we might be slightly overvaluing Hugo Gonzalez but even then....he might really be that good!  Like I am more sure that Jaylen Brown is fool's gold, especially in the aprons era of cap management where Brown is basically poison, but it's pretty close.

Watch the apologists argue with you that he was Finals MVP blah blah.

Yeah I wanted him gone, but just upset that the package received was such an underwhelming package. I thought Brad could've done better

Yeah but again, the package was available to everybody.  Every GM knew we were pulling the trigger this summer.  NOBODY stepped in to beat THAT.  That is his market.  And it's only going to get lower when he's making $73 million.  Fans overrate Jaylen but that is what his value is

Probably, but I think the issue - for most fans - is that you can win a championship with Tatum, Brown and friends. It very much remains to be seen if you can win a championship with just Tatum and friends, which is what the roster is looking like right now.

If ownership thinks Tatum will need another season to really round into form, this trade makes more sense. I still don't like it, but I can see it.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Online Jiri Welsch

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
  • Tommy Points: 392
One thought I have after this trade ? Brad?s apparent philosophy is that future picks are a way to create competitive sustainability across many seasons. Especially given the current CBA.

If he then immediately takes picks and trades them for a ?non star? upgrade like Trey Murphy, it is almost as though he is running counter to this philosophy.

My best guess is that for the remainder of the off-season he will try to improve around the edges while not giving up picks, unless it?s for a legitimate second star.

Offline SparzWizard

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20280
  • Tommy Points: 1184
Probably setting up to go after Cooper Flagg in 2029 or Jokic, Antman or Luka in a couple of years.

Those need to be the targets and nothing less Brad!!


#FireJoe
#JokeMazulla 2026
#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) 2022 - 2026
I am the Master of Panic.

Offline goCeltics

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1934
  • Tommy Points: 71

If Jaylen sucks, why give him the contract in the first place? Brad cannot be right; you can't give him $280 million and then say he sucks, and I have no choice but to trade him for a 36-year-old washed PG who has played fewer than 80 games over the past 2 years. Brad F'd this one way or the other.

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20591
  • Tommy Points: 1360
Bill Chisholm, this was not a basketball decision, it was a business one.

Offline jambr380

  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14198
  • Tommy Points: 2112
  • Sometimes there's no sane reason for optimism
The Celtics obviously determined that they needed to trade him and they needed to trade him now. We don't know the reasons for this, but it seemingly had to happen. I don't think it had anything to do with an impending Jaylen extension when he is signed for 3 more years. That extension is definitely not happening now anyway. Clearly nobody values Jaylen on that level of contract.

As for the best deal available, we just don't know what else was on the table. It is my determination that Brad actually sees value in George and thinks he will yield similar production to Jaylen, while also getting two future 1sts. I don't think Brad necessarily blew a much better opportunity, but there might have been a deal or two that would have been more palatable to fans as all of us see George's contract as an albatross.

Offline Birdman

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10684
  • Tommy Points: 478
I don?t blame Brad. He built a championship team then had to dismantle it cause of the apron. Now owners don?t want pay but don?t blame them giving Brown 70 a year when he?s 33-34. That?s why other teams balk at a trade
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Offline RodyTur10

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2885
  • Tommy Points: 306
  • Always offline from 9pm till 1am
Reaction by a Brown-trade advocater

This is going to be a long post. And as one of the fans who has been advocating a Jaylen Brown trade for a long time I want to give my perspective which differs a lot from the general consensus. So here we go.

My first impression after reading a lot of shocked reactions was that this was a hard reality check for Celtics' fans and also a bit disappointing that not one team believed Brown could be their first option and leading star for whom you give up significant assets to make a big leap forward. But after a night's sleep I have to acknowledge that I'm completely fine with this trade, willing to defend it and that I have full faith in the course of Brad Stevens and the staff.

Why trading Jaylen Brown was necessary

First thing to discuss is the necessity for trading Brown. I have seen a lot of posters on this blog say that we should just salvage the relationship with Jaylen, keep him here and not force ourselves into a non-optimal deal. I disagree wholeheartedly. No other than Brad knows better how fractured egos can dismantle a team and take a talented roster down the drain (think 2018/19 season).

He acted accordingly when fan favourite and so-called soul of the team, Marcus Smart, got in his head too much and thought he had to be a team leader by taking clutch shots. There are more examples where Brad took care of business (Brogdon f.e.). And he has been very careful in obtaining high character guys and not go for the talented immature.

To think that a couple of talks with Jaylen could have brought him back into the Celtics' plans is highly unrealistic. He has been here ten years and knows the roster, staff, management and franchise very well. It's clear he has grown into a player and person through a decade which you have to accept. He's not a rookie who has to be explained his role or reasons for staff or management decisions. Brown understands all this, has a long relationship with his peers, Mazzula and Stevens, and still felt he had to go out and say and do the things he did the last couple of months.

In this regard it's speculation what took this issue over the edge, but I believe it can be simplified by just reaching the conclusion that Jaylen Brown was not willing to play second fiddle anymore, felt disrespected by many and values himself as a leading star on a contender. Given the public shopping and end result I find that the rest of the NBA disagrees.

Evaluation of the deal

Now we go into the actual deal which the vast majority absolutely finds repulsive. We heard media report that the Celtics were looking for a massive haul of even four first round picks for Brown in certain situations. I believe most of us didn't read that carefully. Because it suggests that if the necessary salary taken back would be viewed as negative only then this demand was in place. So in my opinion we can't take the supposedly initial start of Brown was worth four first round picks and taking on George's contract is worth at least one first rounder, so we caved in massively.

No the picks collected are not bad. Often when trading a better and younger player to a contender gives you first round picks back which will be on the low end. With the possible pick swap in '28 for the Clippers pick, that has the chance to be more valuable than a casual late first rounder. And while in general I don't care for second round picks, the two obtained could very well both be in the 31-40 range and that's not worse than picking once in the 25-30 range. Thus we compromised a bit, but nothing crazy.

Of course I had hoped for something better. A team that's desperate for contention or a team with superfluous assets who'd view Brown as the last missing piece. Unfortunately that didn't happen and I'm sure Stevens did his diligence and called every GM in the league to give their starting offer for Brown. Me and others proposed Murphy for instance, but to a team as New Orleans I can see why holding on to a seven years younger wing, on All Star trajectory, for half the salary on a timeline more suited to the rest of the roster is more beneficial.

I guess what bothers me the most is that we sent Brown to arguably our biggest rival, given the fans' rivalry. And his thriving in transition offense alongside Maxey and Edgecombe will be a scary encounter the next time we face the Sixers. But that's also some emotional baggage, which shouldn't alter decisions. And we'll have to see how the Sixers deal with so many mouths to feel.

Moving forward with Paul George

I have seen a couple of posters say that this deal can't be the end of it all and that Stevens' has more moves on his sleeve to make this more sense. Honestly I have seen zero indications this is the case and I think this is just a coping mechanism for heavily disappointed fans. I don't expect any more significant moves. This will be the roster with which we will go into this season. And I feel good about it.

That said, we don't know what will happen at the end of the year. Most likely George will pick up his player option. But then that expiring contract can be used as massive salary filler to make a strong offer (we have a lot of picks and young players) for a disgruntled star (Jokic is a dream of course) or a team, like us, that will struggle with the new CBA and feels the need to trade away a big contract (I can imagine Fox on the Spurs). So although that contract of George looks sickening it can turn into a useful asset quickly under shifting circumstances.

It's no secret that Paul George at 36 years old isn't exactly the same player as in his Indiana or Oklahoma days. He won't be an All NBA player anymore. But he is not as washed as some may think. He's still a valuable, experienced and complete player who has shown he can co-exist with bigger stars. I see zero issues with inserting George into the starting line-up. In fact it might even strengthen our defense. Of course injury proneness is a serious factor, so I expect us to manage his minutes, which can be done since we have a lot more wing depth than the Sixers had last year.

Outlook for the team and contention

A lot of folks find the published analytics on Brown untrue, incomplete, nonsense or whatever. That's worthy of a big discussion which has been done before on this blog. However one stat stands out to me and that is that Jaylen Brown had the highest usage of any playoff player and the second highest usage during the regular season (only behind Doncic). With all due respect to the good player that Brown is, but he's not exactly prime James Harden, LeBron James or Giannis Antetokounmpo that warrants this and it can never be a recipe for success.

While our first round elimination against the Sixers was not something to brag about I view this past season as a formidable coaching job. I'm not in the slightest easy to please, but I have seen the development of the team and overall ability to buy into the Celtics' culture. And that under guidance of Tatum and by now veteran leaders White and Pritchard. This trio (with George) as a core is a lot more cohesive and trustworthy than most other teams. So we don't have to worry the ship is sinking. We're still in the mix.

Add to that the fact that Stevens fixed our biggest weakness by obtaining Robinson and solve our center problem and we're ready to go. Not to mention that our young guys have hopefully made another step. We're so used to having a team filled with stars (our Championship rotation was utterly ridiculous: White/Holiday/Pritchard/Brown/Tatum/Hauser/Horford/Porzingis) that we have forgotten the grinding process that's often needed to become a contender.

Development of our youngsters

Most teams have to hope for ultimate lottery luck to get their franchise hope and develop raw draft prospects to create a core that maybe someday will lead to a meaningful playoff run. We still have Tatum (top ten player). So lets focus in on our young guys. In a respective re-draft Queta, Scheierman and Gonz?lez all would go as mid first round picks (11-20). Even Garza and Walsh would be late first rounders. And I can imagine Harper to follow up as a guy who was overlooked in the draft. We drafted quite well or lured in some interesting free options.

For building teams there's a lot at stake and pressure to develop such youngsters. The Celtics however do it quietly. And it's yielding results. Last summer with the departure of Holiday and Porzingis and the terrible injury of Tatum, expectations were very low. Nonetheless the Celtics won 56 games. That's nothing to sneeze at. Queta most prominently became a reliable starting center. While Scheirman filled in seemingly effortless any role required.

But the biggest asset may be Hugo Gonz?lez. It's most uncommon for Stevens as a GM to rave about individual players during press conference without being specifically asked. The way he talks about the physical, athletic, mental and intellectual talent of the now 20-year old Spaniard is intriguing. The numbers aren't there yet, but there are enough examples of rookies with that obvious X-factor who became stars later on: Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, Tyrese Maxey or Deni Avdija.

Conclusion

So in my opinion there's no need for despair. The future is still bright. We have a franchise player who came back well from a devastating injury. We have exemplary co-stars with great professional awareness. A deep team with humble young players eager to become better. A strong coaching staff and general management who seem to be in line and supportive with each other. A good financial outlook that leaves room for necessary extentions. And assets to make a big move if the opportunity arises. This is still a contender and I believe people will not look at this trade as a big disaster in years to come.