Frontcourt Is Going To Be An Issue This Postseason

[dannyboy35]

 I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

[wdleehi]

As a fundamental matter, I'm confused.  Brad "punted the season" at the trade deadline?

Last I checked, we were one of the top four favorites for a title.

And, who is the imaginary impact center we could have acquired with the TPE?

I also thought one of the reasons to get out of the Apron was to be able to use a TPE?   




At this point, Vooch is having a bigger impact on the playoffs then Simons could of have because of the depth the Celtics already have where he would play.   

[Celtics4ever]

I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

Look at the bright side, we can dump if we want at the end of year if he does not work out. 

I think he has made some timely shots, and gave us good fouls.   I think he is still assimilating to some degree.  He has always been lumbering and has issues with sliding on D, but he is a wall down low.

[jambr380]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

[wdleehi]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?   

[Vermont Green]

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn't make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

It is really two different things that need to be separated. One is the trade of Simons for Vucevic.  I view that as a good trade.  A trade that made the team better.  Not so much because Vucevic is better than Simons, but more because it created better roster balance.  We really needed another serviceable big.  Vucevic has been serviceable.  We didn't need another serviceable guard.  The trade also saved money.  I view it as a brilliant trade.

The second thing is if BOS should have used some of the TPE to bring in another player instead of just signing G-Leaguers to 10 day contracts.  That is a fair question.  They could have gone over the tax but stayed under the first apron.  Hard to know what trades were available.  No one of any real use got waived.  So in theory, yes, the team could have brought in a player that was better than Shugla.  But to make a difference, that player would have had to be better than Garza or Scheierman or they would not have even played.  BOS probably did consider cost and tax in deciding not to use the TPE but I am not sure who exactly they missed out on.

[jambr380]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?

Insert head banging against wall gif

[wdleehi]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?

Insert head banging against wall gif

So explain how to use the TPE if the Celtics were over the 1st Apron.   


Explain who would be playing C when the foul trouble keeps happening


And finally, where are the minutes coming from to get Simons out there?   

[jambr380]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?

Insert head banging against wall gif

So explain how to use the TPE if the Celtics were over the 1st Apron.   


Explain who would be playing C when the foul trouble keeps happening


And finally, where are the minutes coming from to get Simons out there?

You?re acting like there were no other ways to add salary. I used the TPE as an example, but we could have traded for a player who fit within the cap restrictions and then traded that player for someone making more salary.

I have no idea why people are trying to make the argument that this team, as currently constructed below the tax, is the best possible team we could field in the middle of the primes of Jaylen and Jayson.

I?m not a GM, so I don?t know who is available and what they?re available for, but I just don?t think we are putting the best possible team out there (while also staying under the 2nd apron).

Ozgod is right that nobody?s going to care that we duck the tax if and when we lose these playoffs. They are going to wonder what we could have done differently. Hopefully it at least means that we will really spend again in the future. But I even hate that argument because it means we can only be over the tax sometimes rather than all the time with two healthy superstars

[wdleehi]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?

Insert head banging against wall gif

So explain how to use the TPE if the Celtics were over the 1st Apron.   


Explain who would be playing C when the foul trouble keeps happening


And finally, where are the minutes coming from to get Simons out there?

You?re acting like there were no other ways to add salary. I used the TPE as an example, but we could have traded for a player who fit within the cap restrictions and then traded that player for someone making more salary.

I have no idea why people are trying to make the argument that this team, as currently constructed below the tax, is the best possible team we could field in the middle of the primes of Jaylen and Jayson.

I?m not a GM, so I don?t know who is available and what they?re available for, but I just don?t think we are putting the best possible team out there (while also staying under the 2nd apron).

Ozgod is right that nobody?s going to care that we duck the tax if and when we lose these playoffs. They are going to wonder what we could have done differently. Hopefully it at least means that we will really spend again in the future. But I even hate that argument because it means we can only be over the tax sometimes rather than all the time with two healthy superstars

If you are going to use "hypotheticals", at least put some names to it instead of the "mystery box" cheap big that would fit. 


Celtics trade a better player to get a better fit that will help them more in the playoffs.   


Next year, the Celtics are in a better position to improve the team by being under the apron with a TPE from the trade to improve the team.   [/list]

[Roy H.]

Just a reminder that Brad and ownership punted the season by needing to get under the tax. We traded a better player in Simons and decent pick for Vucevic to save money when we could have kept Simons (and his valuable scoring) and brought in an impact Center with our TPE.

It?s great that Chisholm will get back some tax dollars from the league, but that doesn?t help us this season. And it?s not going to help us next season when we very obviously are going to duck the tax again in order to reset the clock.

All this whole Tatum and Brown are in their primes.

 

Cannot disagree more. As was about to get a huge drop in value when JT came back and PP went back to his 6th man role. What touches were left for AS?  He would have dropped into a BS role, without the defense ability. They NEEDED a 15 to 20 minute big that could stretch the D.  Provide a little more O punch than Q. They got it, as well as getting under the cap.

again. His point was they could have kept Simons AND used the big tpe for a big man.  They could have had both.  Money and only money prevented that.

Money and the long-term penalties for being a repeat 2nd apron team.  So we could have Simons sit on the bench?  Sit out injured?  I am not sure what the argument is.

Just to note, nowhere in any of my posts did I state that I thought we should be a 2nd apron team. Getting under the tax and getting under the 2nd apron are two entirely different things. Moranis and ozgod understand this.

Also, it didn?t have to be Simons. They could have still made the Vucevic trade and then used part of the TPE to get another impact player while still staying under the 2nd apron. Vucevic has been underwhelming so far, though, so I wouldn?t have minded if we went in a different direction.

The only thing getting under the tax did was make Chisholm more money and apparently win Brad EOTY. It didn?t make our team better in a year where we are one of the favorites to come out of the east

The Celtics could not use the TPE until they were under the 1st apron.   Trading Simons to create a TPE put the Celtics under the Apron that allowed them to take Vooch into the pre-existing Apron.   


The Celtics are a better playoff team with an extra C then with an extra guard.   Who would have played when both the other C were in foul trouble?

Insert head banging against wall gif

So explain how to use the TPE if the Celtics were over the 1st Apron.   


Explain who would be playing C when the foul trouble keeps happening


And finally, where are the minutes coming from to get Simons out there?

You?re acting like there were no other ways to add salary. I used the TPE as an example, but we could have traded for a player who fit within the cap restrictions and then traded that player for someone making more salary.

I have no idea why people are trying to make the argument that this team, as currently constructed below the tax, is the best possible team we could field in the middle of the primes of Jaylen and Jayson.

I?m not a GM, so I don?t know who is available and what they?re available for, but I just don?t think we are putting the best possible team out there (while also staying under the 2nd apron).

Ozgod is right that nobody?s going to care that we duck the tax if and when we lose these playoffs. They are going to wonder what we could have done differently. Hopefully it at least means that we will really spend again in the future. But I even hate that argument because it means we can only be over the tax sometimes rather than all the time with two healthy superstars

What's a trade that you would have made?

I find hypotheticals to be silly here, particularly when our rotation has 13 or so respectable players.  Sure, we could kept Minott and signed Bassey.  Those two are better right now than Amari and Shulga.  But, that increases our title chances, what, .00000000000001%?

What move did money -- rather than CBA restrictions, not wanting to give up future first rounders, teams giving better offers, etc. -- prevent us from?

Here's a list of all transactions this year:  https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2026_transactions.html

What should we have done?[/list]

[Vermont Green]

A couple of things on using the TPE.  I believe that exceeding the 1st apron prohibits using a TPE from a prior season, but you can use it in the current season.  Porzingis was traded in July so I believe that counts as this season so using his TPE to bring in Vucevic did not hard cap BOS at the first apron.  But I believe we are hard capped at the 2nd apron this season for having used the TPE.

Trade Exceptions: Teams cannot use a traded player exception (TPE) generated in a previous league year [if over the 1st apron].

This means that after trading for Vucevic, BOS could have used the TPE that the Simons trade created or the Holiday TPE (about $4.7M) and gone over the tax or even over the 1st apron.  That is true I believe.  The team chose not to.  I am not sure there was anything decent that was passed on, but the opportunity did exist.

As we go into next season, if BOS uses a TPE from the previous season, BOS would be hard capped at the 1st apron.  I am not sure if BOS will go over the Tax, much less the 1st apron in any case.  The difference is about $8M between the tax and the first apron.

[Neurotic Guy]

There are 30 teams and somehow over the recent past the Celtics have been in the mix among the best. If it weren?t for a single team, OKC, who is experiencing a magical moment where they have exceptional talent and can still control their spending (not for long), the Celtics would have as good a shot as anyone this year. San Antonio is looking almost as scary as OKC but maybe not quite there yet. And they too will have their window.  We don?t have the opportunity to draft a generational player, and we aren?t LAL who can name their next superstar.   But all in all we are doing pretty dang good.  Idk when this years journey will end but I?ve enjoyed it so far and hope to continue doing so.

[ozgod]

As a fundamental matter, I'm confused.  Brad "punted the season" at the trade deadline?

Last I checked, we were one of the top four favorites for a title.

And, who is the imaginary impact center we could have acquired with the TPE?

I also used the phrase, so to clarify, I don't believe Brad punted the season at the trade deadline. I do believe he will be blamed for punting the season at the trade deadline if we fall short in the ECF or the Finals, and if we fall short because two of Q, Garza or Vuc fouled out of multiple games 

I also agree with @jambr380 that the average fan probably doesn't understand the salary cap, the aprons and the tax, and all the financial, asset-management, "match your tax and apron status to your next big spending window" side of things, so for the general fan they could care less about all that stuff. They just want the best team on the court, and they (and the likes of Felger and Mazz) will probably hold Brad (and Bill, who writes the checks) responsible if we fall short and didn't have "the best team we could", to paraphrase @jambr280. I can hear it now - "They had a TPE they could have used and didn't? And they could have used it on Vuc and kept Simons and didn't? Or they could have brought in "insert name of impactful TPE center here" and didn't? All to save Bill a few millions bucks? They cost us a championship!!"

Unfortunately for me, I do understand all the salary cap stuff (thanks largely to you and folks on this site) and I understand exactly why Brad did what he did, because the real time to spend money on this team is not this season, or even next, it's in 2027 when we will have no choice but to exceed the tax, and probably get close to the 2nd apron as well, with the extensions for the current minimums for Q, Garza, Walsh and Baylor, and then 2028 when we will almost certainly be paying a lot more than the $7m we're currently paying for PP (I've posted this screenshot from Spotrac a few times everyone probably hates seeing it):

(click to enlarge)


So with all that spend coming up do we want to be hitting that window with the 5 year repeater rate, or back at the base rate? A reminder of how the repeater rates work:

For 2025-26, the tax rates begin like this (per dollar over the tax line):

Standard: $1.00, then $1.25, then $3.50, then $4.75?
Repeater: $3.00, then $3.25, then $5.50, then $6.75?

Once you?re a repeater, your tax bill increases by ~2 ? (your amount over the tax line) compared to what it would have been at standard rates. So if you?re $10M over the tax line in a repeater year, you pay roughly $20M more in tax than a non-repeater at the same overage. So using napkin math, a non-repeater would pay around 325% for being $10m over the tax, vs a repeater who would be 525%. And it gets much higher at higher brackets (i.e. the more we exceed the tax line).

This is the type of stuff that, as @jambr380 said, the average fan doesn't care about. So what if Bill pays a few extra hundred million in tax? He should be putting out the best product for us. Unfortunately for us, Bill (and Brad) have skin in the game, which changes their calculus. But if we fall short, fans will hold them responsible for it, for "wasting" one of the years of the Jays' prime.

As for the impact center for the TPE, I can't think of one off the top of my head...Myles Turner at $27m has been named plenty of times on this forum (though I can't say I agree with those people's assessments of him  )

[jambr380]

Well, for one, we let Luke and Al walk for absolutely nothing. Combined, they make less than Vucevic. I would rather have them.

How much would we need to cut off of Simons? contract to get under the 2nd apron at that point? We used the Pelicans 2nd to cut over $6M, is there a player making around that much that we could have traded for?

It?s not silly, but I can see I?m not getting anywhere here. This is the best possible team we could have fielded this year apparently. No way for us to be any better or have any other proven reinforcements. It just also happened to take us under the tax. What a coincidence!