2026 HOF class Doc Rivers and Amare Stoudemire

[Who]

Kevin Johnson was phenomenal.

He doesn't get enough credit for how well he played in the 1988-92 stretch prior to Barkley joining. That was KJ's peak. Then he had a strong second stage of his career from 1993-97 run alongside Barkley and after Barkley.

1988-92

KJ is one of just three PGs to average 20-10 for three straight seasons (Oscar Robertson & Zeke are the other 2). And missed just by hair of doing a 4th time (19.7ppg). Oscar is the only PG to this 4 straight years.

KJ was super efficient. He used to get to the FT line 7-8 times a game against his 14-15 FGAs to put up TS% around 58-60%. Fantastic for that period especially for a small guard.

He finished on the 2nd Team All-NBA 3 times during this period and 3rd Team once. Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were the 1st Team guards - The two best players in the league at the time. There was also Drexler at guard along with strong PG competition with Zeke, Mark Price, and Tim Hardaway.

1988-1992 Playoff Run

His playoff resume is sensational.

1989 - 30.7ppg 13apg vs Nuggets WCR1
1989 - 20ppg 11.4apg vs Warriors WCSF
1989 - 23.3ppg 12.8apg vs Lakers WCF (Magic)

1990 - 19.8ppg 9.2apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)
1990 - 22ppg 11.2apg vs Lakers WCSF (Magic)
1990 - 21.8ppg 11.3apg vs Blazers WCF

1991 - 12.8ppg 9.8apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)

1992 - 22.3ppg 15.7apg vs Spurs WCR1
1992 - 24.4ppg 9.2apg vs Blazers WCSF

KJ had only one bad series in 4 years. He was one of the most dominant playoff performers of this period. He dueled twice with Magic Johnson and got a 1-1 split. Both players played brilliantly in both series. Many felt KJ outplayed him in the 2nd one because KJ was one who made all the clutch plays down the stretch to lead his team to a 4-1 victory over Magic's 63 win #1 seed Lakers.

KJ went head to head with Stockton twice. Again splitting 1-1. He had his only bad series of the four years in their 2nd meeting. Stockton vastly outplaying him. In the first one, it is commonly viewed that KJ outplayed Stockton but I am not sure. They were more different than anything. KJ was the better one-on-one player where everything revolved around him (20ppg 9apg) while Stockton was the chief conductor overseeing everything (15ppg 15apg). Neither guy shot the ball that well. Again, KJ made the clutch plays when it mattered.

KJ played those great Blazers teams who made the Finals both years losing to DET and CHI. KJ was the best player on the floor in the first series. Not Drexler. If not for a late injury at the end of the final game, PHO may have won that series. In 1992, both players played great with Drexler getting the nod ahead of KJ after putting up a dominant 31ppg 8rpg 7apg 57% TS% performance. KJ was fantastic in his own right with 24ppg 9.2pg 59% TS%.

---------------

This is one of the most under-rated / forgotten / overlooked runs by a player in history. He doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for how dominant a player he was. Or for how successful his Phoenix Suns team was prior to Barkley joining.

Neither B Griffin or Amare come anywhere close to this level of individual success or team success as the #1 option on their teams. I don't think either player won a playoff series as a #1 guy. 

[Who]

The 1993-97 post-peak period

KJ started to have injury problems during these years. 1993 49 games played, 1994 67gms, 1995 47gms, 1996 56gms, 1997 70gms. Four of those 5 years where with Barkley with KJ as the #2 and 1997 was alongside Jason Kidd.

1993-96 playoff run

1994 WCR1 26.7ppg 9.3apg vs Warriors (Webber, Mullin)
1994 WCSF 26.6ppg 9.7apg vs Rockets (Hakeem)

1995 WCR1 17.7ppg 9apg vs Blazers
1995 WCSF 27.9ppg 9.4apg 66% TS% vs Rockets (Hakeem)

1996 WCR1 17.3ppg 10.8apg vs Spurs (D-Rob)

KJ was brilliant against Houston especially in 1995. It was Barkley who let the Suns down in that series with his so-so shooting which cost Phoenix the series. KJ was dominant in 3 of those 5 series with 26-28ppg / 9apg and very good in the other 2 series with 17ppg 9-11apg continuing his strong playoff record.

1996-97

In his final prime year, in 1996-97, KJ played along J-Kidd. KJ played more as a SG on offense while Kidd ran the point. KJ averaged 20ppg 9apg again on just under 50% FG with a 63% TS. Fantastic efficiency for a small guard for that era. KJ struggled in the playoffs against Payton's Sonics with 17ppg 6apg 2.6spg but terrible shooting numbers 30% FG 41% TS for the series.

[Kernewek]

Kevin Johnson was phenomenal.

He doesn't get enough credit for how well he played in the 1988-92 stretch prior to Barkley joining. That was KJ's peak. Then he had a strong second stage of his career from 1993-97 run alongside Barkley and after Barkley.

1988-92

KJ is one of just three PGs to average 20-10 for three straight seasons (Oscar Robertson & Zeke are the other 2). And missed just by hair of doing a 4th time (19.7ppg). Oscar is the only PG to this 4 straight years.

KJ was super efficient. He used to get to the FT line 7-8 times a game against his 14-15 FGAs to put up TS% around 58-60%. Fantastic for that period especially for a small guard.

He finished on the 2nd Team All-NBA 3 times during this period and 3rd Team once. Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were the 1st Team guards - The two best players in the league at the time. There was also Drexler at guard along with strong PG competition with Zeke, Mark Price, and Tim Hardaway.

1988-1992 Playoff Run

His playoff resume is sensational.

1989 - 30.7ppg 13apg vs Nuggets WCR1
1989 - 20ppg 11.4apg vs Warriors WCSF
1989 - 23.3ppg 12.8apg vs Lakers WCF (Magic)

1990 - 19.8ppg 9.2apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)
1990 - 22ppg 11.2apg vs Lakers WCSF (Magic)
1990 - 21.8ppg 11.3apg vs Blazers WCF

1991 - 12.8ppg 9.8apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)

1992 - 22.3ppg 15.7apg vs Spurs WCR1
1992 - 24.4ppg 9.2apg vs Blazers WCSF

KJ had only one bad series in 4 years. He was one of the most dominant playoff performers of this period. He dueled twice with Magic Johnson and got a 1-1 split. Both players played brilliantly in both series. Many felt KJ outplayed him in the 2nd one because KJ was one who made all the clutch plays down the stretch to lead his team to a 4-1 victory over Magic's 63 win #1 seed Lakers.

KJ went head to head with Stockton twice. Again splitting 1-1. He had his only bad series of the four years in their 2nd meeting. Stockton vastly outplaying him. In the first one, it is commonly viewed that KJ outplayed Stockton but I am not sure. They were more different than anything. KJ was the better one-on-one player where everything revolved around him (20ppg 9apg) while Stockton was the chief conductor overseeing everything (15ppg 15apg). Neither guy shot the ball that well. Again, KJ made the clutch plays when it mattered.

KJ played those great Blazers teams who made the Finals both years losing to DET and CHI. KJ was the best player on the floor in the first series. Not Drexler. If not for a late injury at the end of the final game, PHO may have won that series. In 1992, both players played great with Drexler getting the nod ahead of KJ after putting up a dominant 31ppg 8rpg 7apg 57% TS% performance. KJ was fantastic in his own right with 24ppg 9.2pg 59% TS%.

---------------

This is one of the most under-rated / forgotten / overlooked runs by a player in history. He doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for how dominant a player he was. Or for how successful his Phoenix Suns team was prior to Barkley joining.

Neither B Griffin or Amare come anywhere close to this level of individual success or team success as the #1 option on their teams. I don't think either player won a playoff series as a #1 guy.

But did he dunk over a Kia?

[Roy H.]

Neither B Griffin or Amare come anywhere close to this level of individual success or team success as the #1 option on their teams. I don't think either player won a playoff series as a #1 guy.

It's semantics, I suppose, but who are you considering the #1 option on those Suns teams?  Steve Nash?  Nash was the best player, but he wasn't the #1 option; Amare led in FGAs and usage.

[Who]

Neither B Griffin or Amare come anywhere close to this level of individual success or team success as the #1 option on their teams. I don't think either player won a playoff series as a #1 guy.

It's semantics, I suppose, but who are you considering the #1 option on those Suns teams?  Steve Nash?  Nash was the best player, but he wasn't the #1 option; Amare led in FGAs and usage.

Yes, I meant best player. Not best scorer. Nash was the best player.

[Celtics4ever]

I think Johnson was a great player.    I just think Blake is more of a Hall of Famer and his nominations validate that for me.

[bdm860]

I'm not sure how much it matters to voters, but Johnson has some pretty troubling character concerns.  He wasn't convicted criminally, but there's a lot of smoke there.

Do voters care about that stuff?  It's hard to say.  But, if he doesn't end up making it, I'm not shedding any tears for him.

I'll post this whenever I get the chance, but watching the Real Sports episode on him, makes me think he's definitely guilty.

https://vimeo.com/177447614

The thing that really does it for me is the taped phone call they play starting at about 7:10. Starts with him coming onto the teen, then trying not to incriminate himself when pressed on his inappropriateness. If a teen girl says to me, on what I believe to be a private phone call, that we were naked together, taking showers together, my response wouldn't be "I don't recall" and "my judgement wasn't the best" it would be "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?"


But as for Johnson the basketball player, and the Hall of Very Good, getting elected 26 years after you retired, and 30 years after your prime seems more of the standard for a players of Johnson's caliber. So I find it odd that Blake Griffin and Amare Stoudemire might be getting in so soon, especially Blake as he just retired. They all seem like players who would eventually get the call 20+ years later.


Additional note on Johnson, while I think he's probably scum, I always thought it was pretty cool how he came out of retirement in '00 to help the Suns make a playoff push (as their PG Kidd got injured late March). Harder to conceptualize now, as players change teams so much and also usually keep playing until they can't, but I always thought this was cool (trying to think of what that would be similar to today, but can't come up with anything).

[Moranis]

All you need to know about Amar'e and his importance to the Suns is this.

2004 - the year before Nash, they win 29 games
2005 - Nash's 1st year they win 62 and make the WCF
2006 - Amar'e plays just 3 games, Suns still win 54 games and make the WCF

They had varying degrees of success with him after that, but Nash was the engine of that team.  He was by far the most important player.  Marion and Johnson were also very important pieces with their shooting and defense that allowed Amar'e the ability to play inside and not defend all that well. 

Griffin is actually pretty similar both in per game averages and totals.  Basically across the board.  Neither one is a HOFer, but at least Blake provided some excitement at the all star game dunk contest.  Blake also adapted his game and learned how to shoot from 3.  He became a fairly effectively stretch big.  And while Blake doesn't have the 1st Team All NBA that Amar'e has, Blake finished 3rd in MVP voting one year (yet was just 2nd team all nba because KD and Lebron were 1st and 2nd in MVP and both on the 1st Team as the forwards), while Amar'e never got higher than 6th in MVP voting, but qualified as 1st team one year as a center.

If I told you that only one of those players averaged at least 20/10 (and did so twice), how many would think that player was Blake and not Amar'e?

As I said, I don't think either Blake or Amar'e should make the HOF, but if I had to pick one, it would be Blake.  I think he was a more critical component of the Clippers success, was a better rebounder, and was more willing to adapt his game as he aged and lost athleticism.  To me that is more important.


as for Kevin Johnson, he had a higher peak than either Blake or Amar'e, but he just didn't play very long.  He basically only had 5 great seasons and basically only 2 other years he played a full season and he was not great in those years (one was his rookie year, the other at the tail end after years of injury riddled seasons).  Even without the off court issues, I wouldn't put KJ in the HOF.  He wasn't good enough for long enough.


Doc doesn't belong either.  He has far too many seasons in which his team collapsed in epic fashion.  He also just isn't truthful or honest in basically anything he says.  I don't like the guy at all, which wouldn't keep him out of the HOF in my view, but I'm not going to his side if there is any gray area.  Honestly though I don't think there is gray area.  I just don't think he was a good enough coach and has way too many choke jobs. 

[nickagneta]

There are a bunch of NBA coaches in the Hall that are there due to putting up numbers, like Rick Adelman, Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan and George Karl. They were not necessarily "Hall" worthy coaches, but they did it a long time and got tons of wins. At there best they all had some massive superstars playing for them.

Doc fits that same mold. But with one big difference, at his best with his superstars, Doc won a title. If those guys can get in, then Doc deserves to be in too, especially since, yeah, he did win a chip

[Moranis]

There are a bunch of NBA coaches in the Hall that are there due to putting up numbers, like Rick Adelman, Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan and George Karl. They were not necessarily "Hall" worthy coaches, but they did it a long time and got tons of wins. At there best they all had some massive superstars playing for them.

Doc fits that same mold. But with one big difference, at his best with his superstars, Doc won a title. If those guys can get in, then Doc deserves to be in too, especially since, yeah, he did win a chip

I get that and he has over 1000 wins and the other 8 guys are all in the HOF. For me though, I just remember the collapses and the disappointments more than anything else with his coaching resume.  I just felt his teams by and large underachieved a lot.  Even in Boston after that 1st year of the Big 3, it just felt like more failures than successes. 

[CFAN38]

Maybe this is just one of the things that happens when you reach middle age but I felt like the Hall of famers of my youth where just more deserving...

[Who]

Kevin Johnson trivia

20+ppg 12+apg

* Only player other than Magic and Isiah to average 20-12 in a season.

* Only player other than Magic to average 20-12 50% FG% in a season.

20+ppg 10+apg 50+% FG

* Only player other than Magic to average 20-10 50% FG% twice.
 
* KJ almost managed a 3rd season at 20-10 50% FG which would have made him the only player in league history to do so 3 times but just missed out at 49.9% FG.

This trivia is a few years old so it may be a bit dated ...

Playoff Trivia

* Only player in NBA history to average 25ppg 13apg through 3 rounds (WCF). Magic Johnson is the only other player to do this through 2 rounds. KJ did 3 rounds.

* Magic averaged 20-10 beyond the first round 4 times. KJ is 2nd best all-time with 3 times. Deron Williams and Steve Nash did this 2 times.

* Magic averaged 20-10 3 times to the Conference Finals or beyond. KJ is tied 2nd all-time with Steve Nash both of whom did so 2 times.

* Only player to average 20+ppg 9+apg on 5 different playoff runs. KJ went past the first round on all 5 occassions.

Chris Paul spent 8 of his 12 playoff appearances losing in the first round. KJ did his on longer playoff runs. More impressive. That is why the distinction from past the first round matters. If a guy only does it for 4-5 games, does that really compare to a guy who did it for 10-12 games?

[Roy H.]

There are a bunch of NBA coaches in the Hall that are there due to putting up numbers, like Rick Adelman, Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan and George Karl. They were not necessarily "Hall" worthy coaches, but they did it a long time and got tons of wins. At there best they all had some massive superstars playing for them.

Doc fits that same mold. But with one big difference, at his best with his superstars, Doc won a title. If those guys can get in, then Doc deserves to be in too, especially since, yeah, he did win a chip

I get that and he has over 1000 wins and the other 8 guys are all in the HOF. For me though, I just remember the collapses and the disappointments more than anything else with his coaching resume.  I just felt his teams by and large underachieved a lot.  Even in Boston after that 1st year of the Big 3, it just felt like more failures than successes.

I though Doc was good here from 2008 to 2011.  I don't think I ever thought that our chances at a title would have been better if we'd had a different coach.  It's the KG, Perk and Shaq injuries that kept us from additional titles, rather than Doc.

But, pretty much everywhere else he went he seemed to underachieve relative to the talent on his roster.

[Who]

KJ had an 11 year career and a brief stand in for 15gms in a 12th season. He was a backup PG for 20mpg in Cleveland for the first half of his rookie season (behind Mark Price) before being traded to Phoenix where he became the starter. That was 1987-88. And in 1997-98, in his final full season, KJ became the backup guard behind Jason Kidd where he played 26mpg.

Outside of those two seasons where KJ started and ended his career, Kevin Johnson had a 9 year stretch from 1988-1997. In that period, KJ averaged 19.8ppg 10.0apg on 49.7% FG and a 59% TS (elite for that period).

Magic Johnson is the only player to average 20/10 50% FG for his career.

-------------------

I think KJ is one of the most under-rated PGs in league history. That 9 year stretch (long period) stands up against many of the top PGs in league history once you go outside the top 5 or so PGs.

He also had great team success throughout that period. Many long playoff runs and KJ starred in those playoff runs.

[Roy H.]

* Only player other than Magic and Isiah to average 20-12 in a season.

That's a surprising and impressive stat to me.  12 apg is tough; Steve Nash never got there (nor did he hit 20ppg).  Stockton never had the elite scoring.  But, I would have figured Oscar did it.  Nope.

In fact, only five players have ever had 12+ apg in a season:

Stockton (8x)
Magic (6x)
Isiah (1x)
K. Johnson (1x)
K. Porter (1x)