CBS Sports' Top 25 NBA Players of the 21st Century

[Who]

And, I do think that Lebron and Bosh joining Wade is similar to Durant joining the Warriors.

I don't think much of The Heattles when I think of Wade. I think of him leading the Heat to the title in 2006. I think of his seasons as the main man from 2006-10. His time with LeBron does not hold much influence over my appraisal.

The 1st season with LeBron, Wade was still a top 5 player in the league. He had dropped to top 10 by his 2nd season and was in decline after that. Down to All-Star level by 2013 and 2014. It is more additive to Wade's resume in terms of longevity (high quality seasons) than a primary factor / driving force in how I think of his peak / prime / career. It is a secondary period in Wade's career. The primary period came before LeBron.

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For LeBron, you could take away that whole 4 year stretch in Miami and I would still have him as the #1 player of his generation + of the last 25 years.

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For Durant, the 2 titles with GSW are key because he never won without them. They would be less of an issue if Durant managed to win a title in OKC, Brooklyn or Phoenix.

How you view those 2 titles could swing your opinion of Durant's career / legacy in a large way.

[Roy H.]

And, I do think that Lebron and Bosh joining Wade is similar to Durant joining the Warriors.

I don't think much of The Heattles when I think of Wade. I think of him leading the Heat to the title in 2006. I think of his seasons as the main man from 2006-10. His time with LeBron does not hold much influence over my appraisal.

The 1st season with LeBron, Wade was still a top 5 player in the league. He had dropped to top 10 by his 2nd season and was in decline after that. Down to All-Star level by 2013 and 2014. It is more additive to Wade's resume in terms of longevity (high quality seasons) than a primary factor / driving force in how I think of his peak / prime / career. It is a secondary period in Wade's career. The primary period came before LeBron.

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For LeBron, you could take away that whole 4 year stretch in Miami and I would still have him as the #1 player of his generation + of the last 25 years.

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For Durant, the 2 titles with GSW are key because he never won without them. They would be less of an issue if Durant managed to win a title in OKC, Brooklyn or Phoenix.

How you view those 2 titles could swing your opinion of Durant's career / legacy in a large way.

That's fair.  My view of Durant is probably similar to your own.  I think he's a front runner, rather than the type of guy who will lift a team to a title.

With Lebron, I also agree that he'd probably be #1 even without the Heat titles.  I do think that his time with the Heat was quite disappointing:  2-for-4, and only a missed FT and Ray Allen 3-pointer from 1-3.  The Cleveland title was him lifting a team to a title.  That said, those Heat titles do boost Lebron's legacy league-wide.  If he was a two-time title winner, I think he'd be outside of the conversation for GOAT. 

And with Curry, I don't hold Durant's addition against him.  I give him full credit for all four titles, and note that except for injuries (2019) and a Draymond suspension (2016) he could have won two more.

[Moranis]

And, I do think that Lebron and Bosh joining Wade is similar to Durant joining the Warriors.

I don't think much of The Heattles when I think of Wade. I think of him leading the Heat to the title in 2006. I think of his seasons as the main man from 2006-10. His time with LeBron does not hold much influence over my appraisal.

The 1st season with LeBron, Wade was still a top 5 player in the league. He had dropped to top 10 by his 2nd season and was in decline after that. Down to All-Star level by 2013 and 2014. It is more additive to Wade's resume in terms of longevity (high quality seasons) than a primary factor / driving force in how I think of his peak / prime / career. It is a secondary period in Wade's career. The primary period came before LeBron.

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For LeBron, you could take away that whole 4 year stretch in Miami and I would still have him as the #1 player of his generation + of the last 25 years.

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For Durant, the 2 titles with GSW are key because he never won without them. They would be less of an issue if Durant managed to win a title in OKC, Brooklyn or Phoenix.

How you view those 2 titles could swing your opinion of Durant's career / legacy in a large way.

That's fair.  My view of Durant is probably similar to your own.  I think he's a front runner, rather than the type of guy who will lift a team to a title.

With Lebron, I also agree that he'd probably be #1 even without the Heat titles.  I do think that his time with the Heat was quite disappointing:  2-for-4, and only a missed FT and Ray Allen 3-pointer from 1-3.  The Cleveland title was him lifting a team to a title.  That said, those Heat titles do boost Lebron's legacy league-wide.  If he was a two-time title winner, I think he'd be outside of the conversation for GOAT. 

And with Curry, I don't hold Durant's addition against him.  I give him full credit for all four titles, and note that except for injuries (2019) and a Draymond suspension (2016) he could have won two more.

ro be fair, if the Warriors had won in 16, Durant doesnt join that team.  Also if Kyrie doesnt get hurt in OT in game 1 in 15 (Love also missed that whole series), Curry might not have won pre-Durant.  Many series are decided by 1 or 2 key things. 

The Heat absolutely should have beaten Dallas, but they were not better than the Spurs in 14 as Wade wasn't even an All NBA caliber player by that point.  And Bosh was clearly a solid all star level player, but he had 1 All NBA Team appararance in his entire career (a 2nd Team in 2007, i.e  3 full Toronto years before the Heat). He wasn't this world beater that he is portrayed as.  The Heat gutted their team to make the cap room and then traded a whole bunch of 1st's to make the big 3 happen. They were very thin and were premised on Lebron staying best in world level, Wade remaining a top 5 to 10 player, and Bosh staying around 15.  That really was only the case the 1st 2 years, then Wade started a fairly rapid decline and Bosh started to feel the effects of injuries here and there (like him missing the first part of the Celtics series in 12).  A great deep team like the Spurs was always going to beat the Heat.  I mean in the Finals Lebron nearly doubled up Wade and Bosh.  The Heat could never win a series like that.

[Roy H.]

To be fair, if the Warriors had won in 16, Durant doesnt join that team

I'm not sure if I buy that narrative.

... but they were not better than the Spurs in 14 as Wade wasn't even an All NBA caliber player by that point

Duncan was 37 and Manu was 36, and Wade was one year removed from All-NBA and was an All-Star.

[Moranis]

Duncan was 1st Team All NBA in 13 and 3rd Team in 15 (and 2nd Team defense both years). He was objectively better than Wade. Parker was 2nd Team All NBA in 14.  Kawhi was just entering his prime years (back to back dpoy in 15 and 16).  Manu basically had a Bosh like career, though was definitely on the downswing at that point.  They also had Diaw, Green, Splitter, Mills, even Bellinelli was competent. The 4th and 5th players in the Heat were literally in their last season in Allen and Lewis. Chalmers was starting and they had Cole, Birdman, and James Jones.  Outside of Lebron vs Parker as best player, the Spurs were better at every single place in the rotation.

There is afterall a reason the Spurs were the betting favorite in Vegas despite the Heat having the best player in the world and being the 2 time defending champions.  And there is a reason Lebron left his best friend after that season to go back to Cleveland to play for an owner that went scorched earth when he left and crazy Kyrie with Waiters, Thompson, and whatever they got for Wiggins with a first-year coach from Europe.  Lebron knew what was readily apparent, i.e. Wade was done as a top level player and there was no way the Heat could build a contender with LeBron and Wade on the team. LeBron would keep them too good and they had no cap room or assets to trade. The well was dry in Miami.

[Roy H.]

Duncan was 1st Team All NBA in 13 and 3rd Team in 15 (and 2nd Team defense both years). He was objectively better than Wade. Parker was 2nd Team All NBA in 14.  Kawhi was just entering his prime years (back to back dpoy in 15 and 16).  Manu basically had a Bosh like career, though was definitely on the downswing at that point.  They also had Diaw, Green, Splitter, Mills, even Bellinelli was competent. The 4th and 5th players in the Heat were literally in their last season in Allen and Lewis. Chalmers was starting and they had Cole, Birdman, and James Jones.  Outside of Lebron vs Parker as best player, the Spurs were better at every single place in the rotation.

There is afterall a reason the Spurs were the betting favorite in Vegas despite the Heat having the best player in the world and being the 2 time defending champions.  And there is a reason Lebron left his best friend after that season to go back to Cleveland to play for an owner that went scorched earth when he left and crazy Kyrie with Waiters, Thompson, and whatever they got for Wiggins with a first-year coach from Europe.  Lebron knew what was readily apparent, i.e. Wade was done as a top level player and there was no way the Heat could build a contender with LeBron and Wade on the team. LeBron would keep them too good and they had no cap room or assets to trade. The well was dry in Miami.

Wade was an all-star the next two seasons after Lebron left, as was Bosh.  Arguing that the "well was dry" sort of shows how much Lebron had a front-runner, superteam oriented mindset.  He left two all-stars to join another team with two all-stars / All-NBA players.

[Moranis]

Duncan was 1st Team All NBA in 13 and 3rd Team in 15 (and 2nd Team defense both years). He was objectively better than Wade. Parker was 2nd Team All NBA in 14.  Kawhi was just entering his prime years (back to back dpoy in 15 and 16).  Manu basically had a Bosh like career, though was definitely on the downswing at that point.  They also had Diaw, Green, Splitter, Mills, even Bellinelli was competent. The 4th and 5th players in the Heat were literally in their last season in Allen and Lewis. Chalmers was starting and they had Cole, Birdman, and James Jones.  Outside of Lebron vs Parker as best player, the Spurs were better at every single place in the rotation.

There is afterall a reason the Spurs were the betting favorite in Vegas despite the Heat having the best player in the world and being the 2 time defending champions.  And there is a reason Lebron left his best friend after that season to go back to Cleveland to play for an owner that went scorched earth when he left and crazy Kyrie with Waiters, Thompson, and whatever they got for Wiggins with a first-year coach from Europe.  Lebron knew what was readily apparent, i.e. Wade was done as a top level player and there was no way the Heat could build a contender with LeBron and Wade on the team. LeBron would keep them too good and they had no cap room or assets to trade. The well was dry in Miami.

Wade was an all-star the next two seasons after Lebron left, as was Bosh.  Arguing that the "well was dry" sort of shows how much Lebron had a front-runner, superteam oriented mindset.  He left two all-stars to join another team with two all-stars / All-NBA players.

The Cavs had a much better roster and much better trade assets.  Wade and Bosh were all stars as much as reputation as skill. The Heat win 37 games in 2015.  They were not good. In 16, they added a bunch of quality players and won 48, but they coukd not have done that with Lebron on the roster..

[Celtics4ever]

I feel Jason Kidd being on their list kind of makes it a complete joke.  His stats do not align the a top 25 players.  He was a great player and do everything swiss knife but get real.   I think Paul Pierce should be on this list and no Dwight Howard.  Howard was good for a flash and then dropped off the planet.

Their NBA staff,  Brad Botkin, James Herbert, and Jasmyn Wimbish, who wrote the article are not top level NBA analysts. 

Wade won a title without LeBron in 2005-06.   LeBron strength is not winning titles he chokes in the finals. 

[Moranis]

Dwight Howard won 3 consecutive DPOY and finished top 5 in MVP voting 4 straight years.  He has 5 1st Team, 1 2nd Team, and 2 3rd Team All NBA (also 4 1st Team D and a 2nd).  He was a significantly better player than Pierce.  It isn't close. 

Starting with 99-00, Kidd has 5 1st Team and a 2nd Team All NBA. He also has 3 1st Team All D and 5 2nd Team All D.  That makes him far more decorated than Pierce even starting with the 00 season.

I get as Celtics fan we love PP, but he was a very good but not great player.  Pierce in his entire career was never a 1st Team All NBA player.  He had just 1 2nd Team and 3 3rd Team. That's it.  No All Defense appearances.  Just 5 seasons with MVP votes and even the 10 all star appearances seems light compared to his other peers (Allen had 10 also).

[Celtics4ever]

On Dwight Howard - And boom his career was over in the flash after that.   Does five good years make him an all century guy.

On Jason Kidd  I would contend that the first team and like awards are a popularity contest -see below.

On Paul Pierce he went head to head with that stars of his era, and often beat them.

The first and second  team stuff you use in your arguments  is voted on by a global panel of 100 sportswriters and broadcasters.  It is not even remotely stat, math or scientifically based in terms of a players skills.  Popularity is a big thing if they like a guy.   We all know these panels have favorites and biases.  Certain cities might have more reporters, etc.   A lot of these guys may hate the Celtics because we beat them for so long.

I give you an example take a look at Paul's best NBA season.

FIRST TEAM
? F: LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers
? F: Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
? C: Shaquille O?Neal, Miami Heat
? G: Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
? G: Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns

SECOND TEAM
? F: Elton Brand, LA Clippers
? F: Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
? C: Ben Wallace, Detroit Pistons
? G: Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
? G: Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat

THIRD TEAM
? F: Carmelo Anthony, Denver Nuggets
? F: Shawn Marion, Phoenix Suns
? C: Yao Ming, Houston Rockets
? G: Gilbert Arenas, Washington Wizards
? G: Allen Iverson, Philadelphia 76ers

That year Paul's stats were

2005-06 Season Breakdown

    Points Per Game: 26.8
    Total Points: 2,144 (led the league)
    Field Goal Percentage: 47.1%
    Three-Point Percentage: 35.4%
    True Shooting Percentage: 58.2%
    Rebounds: 6.7
    Assists: 4.7
    Career High Assists: 5.1 in 2003-04
    Career High Rebounds: 7.3 in 2002-03
    Career High FG%: 47.1% in 2005-06
    Career High 3PT%: 40.4% in 2001-02
    Career High FT%: 82.2% in 2004-05
    Career High TS%: 58.3% in 2004-05

Ben Wallace great fender but not statistically better than Paul  7 PPG and 11 RPG
Shawn Marion another great rebounder and defender  21PPG 12 RPG 1.8 APG  3P% 33%
Gilbert Arenas 29 PPG 3.5 RPG,  4 APG  shot FG 41% and 3P 37%

Steve Nash, won the MVP   that year.

I see your points, and I am not a blatant homer but I would never base all my argument off the opinions of reporters voting for an award.