Would you be okay with this finish to the off-season?

[Moranis]

Brown no longer has the speed to play SG at a high level.  If you consistently play players out of position you aren't maximizing your talent not giving the team the best chance to win.

[Roy H.]

Brown no longer has the speed to play SG at a high level.  If you consistently play players out of position you aren't maximizing your talent not giving the team the best chance to win.

I'm not sure that's true.  He's stronger than the SGs that are quicker than him.

But, I don't think it matters, because I think Tatum is a PF in today's game, and will stay there.  That means JB is fine as a SF.

And, I think those two compliment each other very well defensively, as dpes White. 

[Moranis]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

[blink]

so every off season thread gets hijacked into a trade Brown thread
gotta love this time of the year.

[keevsnick]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

[mobilija]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

Yeah, why add some of our better low cost assets?

What can u get me for just Brown and Tillman that has a bit of cost savings?

[Moranis]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

Yeah, why add some of our better low cost assets?

What can u get me for just Brown and Tillman that has a bit of cost savings?

Boston has 15 players under contract, so to acquire 4, they have to trade 4.  That is also how you get the cost savings i.e. by adding salaries.

[mobilija]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

Yeah, why add some of our better low cost assets?

What can u get me for just Brown and Tillman that has a bit of cost savings?

Boston has 15 players under contract, so to acquire 4, they have to trade 4.  That is also how you get the cost savings i.e. by adding salaries.

Bad trade then

Edit: I just played w the trade machine a bit to find a trade without our low cost assets and looked at the Spurs players some more and?.none of those players seem like a centerpiece to Jaylen Brown trade. I?d need way more draft compensation. Agree w the Carter-Williams vibes on Castle, I?m not banking on him becoming a perennial all-star.

[Moranis]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

the last quarter of the season Castle averaged over 19/6/5.  Needs to work on his outside shooting, but he has all the tools and was a top 4 pick for a reason (he also was 20 with 1 year of college).  MCW wasn't a top 10 pick and was basically the same player his entire rookie year. His 20 game splits are all virtually identical.  He was also 22 (and 2 years of college after starting late).

[mobilija]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

the last quarter of the season Castle averaged over 19/6/5.  Needs to work on his outside shooting, but he has all the tools and was a top 4 pick for a reason (he also was 20 with 1 year of college).  MCW wasn't a top 10 pick and was basically the same player his entire rookie year. His 20 game splits are all virtually identical.  He was also 22 (and 2 years of college after starting late).

When Wemby was out? Fox too, right?
So?he was marginally able to stat pad on a .375ish team? Color me unimpressed

[celticinorlando]

Just get Niang off this team.

But i am not sure we see this radical change to the roster here. I think Simons and Niang are in the starting line up opening night with JB, White and Queta.

[Who]

How about this trade

Brown, Hauser, Tillman, Scheireman

for

Castle, Vassell, Johnson, Carter Bryant, 2027 ATL 1st, remove 2028 swap w/ BOS (maybe another 1st in future as well)

So the rookie of the year, a rookie lotto pick, 2 starter/high rotational level wings, and a future 1st or 2. Plus team drops enough salary that dumping Niang gets Boston out of tax or can move Simons, Vassell, or Johnson to drop salary and get out of tax that way.

Not enough. That 2027 Atlanta pick all of a sudden isn't looking great, I think they'll be good that year. Castle was Rookie of the year, but so was Michale Carter-Williams. I just don't believe that much in his upside. Vassel and Johnson are fine, but this is a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade and you never want to be the team getting the 4 quarters.

Edit: And I didn't even see you included Hauser, who has real positive value, and Scheierman who was a recent first round pick. I wouldn't do this deal WITHOUT those guys, with them is a HARD no.

the last quarter of the season Castle averaged over 19/6/5.  Needs to work on his outside shooting, but he has all the tools and was a top 4 pick for a reason (he also was 20 with 1 year of college).  MCW wasn't a top 10 pick and was basically the same player his entire rookie year. His 20 game splits are all virtually identical.  He was also 22 (and 2 years of college after starting late).

When Wemby was out? Fox too, right?
So?he was marginally able to stat pad on a .375ish team? Color me unimpressed

Bref.com has +/- on Castle's monthly splits. So the Spurs were -9.7 points per game in March when Castle played 28.8mpg with 19.5ppg 4.4rpg 4.8apg 54.6% TS%. They were -14.2 points per game in 8 April games when Castle played 33.3mpg with 18.9ppg 6.9rpg 7.5apg on 56.3% TS%.

Also interesting to note that the 56.3% TS% in 8 April games is the only passable TS% Castle had in any month during the season. 4 other months ranged from 52.2% to 54.6% TS%. A 5gm October run had a 37% TS% and December was his worst proper month with 46.6% TS%.

If we disclude the 8 April games where he had a decent TS% and the first 8 games of the season where he had a terrible TS%, Castle had a 52.3% TS% for the season. Very poor. Westbrook / Westbrick territory.

[Who]

Side Question: How different is Stephon Castle from Amen Thompson as a prospect?

Defense

Amen Thompson is a DPOY candidate. Castle is an above average defender with a strong likelihood of becoming an All-Defensive player in the future.

Rebounding

Kinda apples to oranges here. But anyway. Amen 8.2rpg in 32.2mpg. Castle 4.1rpg in 26.7mpg or 5.2rpg in 30.3mpg in final 25 games.

Amen played most forward minutes. He played a lot PF minutes with Jabari Smith Jr out injured. So he played closer to the basket and had more rebounding opportunities. A player at PF is expected to grab more rebounds than a guard.

So relative to each player's position: Amen Thompson is an excellent rebounding SF (and SG) and an above average rebounding PF. Castle is an excellent rebounding PG and an above average rebounding SG.

Passing

Amen averaged 3.8apg to 2.0 turnovers per game in 32.2mpg. Castle averaged 4.1apg to 2.2 turnovers per game in 26.7mpg or 5.6apg to 2.8 turnovers game in 30.3mpg.

I find the the assists interesting for Amen because he was talked about as a ball-handling guard when he was drafted. And how Reed Sheppard and Amen would be a great fit for one another because Amen can run the offense and Sheppard can be more of a combo-guard. We haven't seen much of that from Amen so far.

Amen's assists numbers are good for SF and very good for PF. Average for a SG. Castle's assists number are below average for a PG but above average for a SG. Both have a near 2:1 AST:TOV ratio. Not good for primary ball-handler but good for a wing player.

Scoring

Amen averaged 14.1ppg in 32.2mpg on 60.2% TS%. Castle averaged 14.7ppg in 26.7mpg on 52.2% TS% or 19.3ppg in 30.3mpg on 55.2% TS% over final 25 games.

So the scoring efficiency boosts Amen here but it also gives an unfair picture. Amen was able to have a high FG% because he shot so few jump-shots. He was just a basic cutter and transition scorer. On the season, Amen took 561 of his 697 FGA within 10 feet of the basket. That is 80.5% of his FGA. That is an incredibly high number. For Amen to become a primary scoring option, he has to develop a jump-shot and at this point in his development his jump-shot is worse than Stephon Castle's jump-shot. Castle jumper is dodgy but Amen's jumper is almost non-existent.

So Amen only has a superior TS% because he was able to cherry pick his shot attempts on a superior team. And what he is currently doing is not sustainable in terms of increasing his usage. So if his usage increases and he is asked to be a focal point of the offense, his TS% will plummet. Likely to a TS% well below average.

The good news for Amen is that he can generate a large number of high percentage shots at the rim. That is sustainable. So he has a sustainable chunk of high value offense in his repertoire moving forward.

Let's go back to Castle. He took 988 shots on the season with 521 of them coming within 10 feet of the basket. So roughly half of his shots came in the paint. That is an impressive number for a guard. He took a lot of 3s (333 3PTA) without shooting a good percentage (28.5%). So he was mostly a paint finisher or bad 3 point shooter. That accounted for 854 of his 988 FGA. So almost no midrange game.

One other thing that stands out for Castle is his 344 FTA against 988 FGA. A free throw rate of 34.8%. That is a great number for guard. That is what you want to see from you center. Nevermind a guard.

Castle, like Amen, has shown the capacity to generate a large number of high percentage hoops near the basket (FGA + FTA) which will likely anchor his scoring & scoring efficiency moving forward (as it will with Amen).

Physical Tools

Amen has superior physical tools. 6-7 elite athlete with elite quickness and above average strength. Castle is 6-6 an above average athlete with good speed, strength and length. Castle is more sneaky athletic than jumps off the screen athletic that Amen is.

Final Thoughts

I just find it interesting how Amen is being viewed around the league. As a can't miss prospect. As a future franchise player. Despite having no real scoring ability at this point in his career.

I also look at Castle and see scoring ability as the main question mark. How much can he improve his jump-shot. And however much that is that will define how good of a player he can be. Very similar to Amen Thompson. Yet treated so differently.

Both guys have the capacity to be high level / elite contributors in non-scoring categories. In defense, rebounding, ball-handling, passing.

They have a lot of similarities yet treated differently.