European soccer culture

[RodyTur10]

As a Dutch man (thus European) and grown up with soccer (or preferably just: football  ) and the sports culture here it's interesting how American sports differ. To give an example: playoffs. They didn't exist. Now some sports are taking over this concept as unfortunately our European culture is vanishing through Americanization.

But in the Dutch soccer competition not everybody was thrilled about a playoffs concept. In particular fans who find it dishonest that a couple of games decide who becomes champions making the regular season games kind of meaningless. As a compromise they did introduce the playoffs with the caveat that the regular season leader is excluded as champion and that the other high ranked teams have playoffs for European Cup tickets and the low ranked teams have teams to avoid relegation. I think such a thing would be found ridiculous in the USA to have playoffs without the winner being crowned champion.

A very different way between the NBA and "soccer" competitions is the way players are contracted. Lots of times players are transferred because of a demand for higher salary or bigger ambitions. Players are less restricted than in the NBA (even though star players in basketball also demand trades).

But sometimes there's a counter side. And that's why I've opened this topic. My club Ajax is not doing so well. They finished second by losing on the last match day, but that's not important. It's clear that we have too many players who are of insufficient quality. Our technical director Kroes (likewise a GM in the NBA) who is responsible for the squad wants players out and is taking hard measures (read below). Let me know what you think about this treatment of players, who have done nothing wrong besides perhaps being not good enough. Could you envision GM Stevens sending such a WhatsApp message to Hauser, Tillman, Walsh, Queta, Davison etc.?



Alex Kroes has informed seven Ajax players via WhatsApp that they are no longer welcome in the first team. This was reported by newspaper De Telegraaf. The technical director wants to sell these players in order to free up funds to strengthen the squad.

The players involved are Chuba Akpom, Carlos Forbs, Borna Sosa, Kristian Hlynsson, Christian Rasmussen, Jay Gorter, and Branco van den Boomen. Ajax is taking strict measures. "They are only allowed to use the training field and gym after the first team has had lunch," Verweij writes.

"If coach John Heitinga has a double training session, the seven players can only enter the training facility "De Toekomst" after the second session is over. There is no longer any parking space for their cars in the area reserved for the first team and staff. And only one physiotherapist is now available for them."

[Kuberski33]

Interesting topic. You are talking about two totally different systems that evolved differently. I would love to see a salary cap in the EPL. Guaranteed Manchester United would get relegated because a cap puts a premium on good management. In Europe the wealthy teams can just keep throwing money at their problems while the weaker teams have a much smaller margin for error.

I follow Leicester in England. They've now been relegated twice since their miraculous EPL title in 2016 - the main reason being they had to be perfect with their roster managment and they weren't. It's ironic to me that on a continent where socialism is a thing, football is, for the most part, pure capitalism. The rich compete for titles, the middle tries to stay in the league, maybe compete for a domestic cup or sneak into the Champions or Europa league if the top clubs all falter and the poor just hope to stay in the top league as long as possible. There is a heirarchy. If the lower teams develop a good player, a rich club will come for them, offer more money, pay a transfer fee and that's it. For a lower club to compete for a title you really need the stars to align as they did for Leicester in 15-16 and that just doesn't happen very often.  And when it does, all the good players depart for bigger clubs shortly thereafter.

In American sports they take a wider view. Its about the product of the league. Competition is what sells. The NBA is now set up to give all teams a chance to win a title (which just happened with OKC). And with this new collective bargaining agreement the NBA is operating under - your window to win lasts about 3 years - then you have to retool as the Celtics unfortunately are forced to do now. But fans of teams 1-30 can all realistically dream of winning a title.

As far as treatment of players go - the NBA has a strong players union and everyone's making money. So they've negotiated a fairer system for players than what's happening in Europe. As far as what Ajax is doing, your TD is acting that way because he can. If Stevens were to do that, Boston would have a tougher time attracting free agent players because there are 29 other teams where a player can make similar money. 

I'm guessing none of the Ajax players you've listed are super stars. So what are their options?  Mid to lower table clubs most likely and probably not in the wealthier leagues like England, Spain and Germany. And as an Ajax fan, how did you feel when they sold off that roster that made a run through the Champions League a few years back? That team had some studs - most of whom Ajax wound up selling prior to the next season.

I like the American system better only because it gives everyone a chance. I just can't see getting excited about a season when realistically only 2 or 3 clubs have a chance of winning a title (maybe add a club or 2 for the EPL). The Euro system also provides a cushion for lousy management or ownership - both of which are just not tolerated in most US markets.

[RodyTur10]

Interesting topic. You are talking about two totally different systems that evolved differently. I would love to see a salary cap in the EPL. Guaranteed Manchester United would get relegated because a cap puts a premium on good management. In Europe the wealthy teams can just keep throwing money at their problems while the weaker teams have a much smaller margin for error.

I follow Leicester in England. They've now been relegated twice since their miraculous EPL title in 2016 - the main reason being they had to be perfect with their roster managment and they weren't. It's ironic to me that on a continent where socialism is a thing, football is, for the most part, pure capitalism. The rich compete for titles, the middle tries to stay in the league, maybe compete for a domestic cup or sneak into the Champions or Europa league if the top clubs all falter and the poor just hope to stay in the top league as long as possible. There is a heirarchy. If the lower teams develop a good player, a rich club will come for them, offer more money, pay a transfer fee and that's it. For a lower club to compete for a title you really need the stars to align as they did for Leicester in 15-16 and that just doesn't happen very often.  And when it does, all the good players depart for bigger clubs shortly thereafter.

In American sports they take a wider view. Its about the product of the league. Competition is what sells. The NBA is now set up to give all teams a chance to win a title (which just happened with OKC). And with this new collective bargaining agreement the NBA is operating under - your window to win lasts about 3 years - then you have to retool as the Celtics unfortunately are forced to do now. But fans of teams 1-30 can all realistically dream of winning a title.

As far as treatment of players go - the NBA has a strong players union and everyone's making money. So they've negotiated a fairer system for players than what's happening in Europe. As far as what Ajax is doing, your TD is acting that way because he can. If Stevens were to do that, Boston would have a tougher time attracting free agent players because there are 29 other teams where a player can make similar money.

I'm guessing none of the Ajax players you've listed are super stars. So what are their options?  Mid to lower table clubs most likely and probably not in the wealthier leagues like England, Spain and Germany.

No, these players ar no stars although one of them is an international of Croatia. They're not responsible for the situation. The players' union says it's a disgrace, but they have no power of course.

And as an Ajax fan, how did you feel when they sold off that roster that made a run through the Champions League a few years back? That team had some studs - most of whom Ajax wound up selling prior to the next season.

That's the way it works for decades unfortunately. Mazraoui, De Ligt, De Jong, Van de Beek, Ziyech and others left soon. We know this and as a relatively smaller club in Europe we also need the transfer fees to be able to invest in new players. Football is a pure pyramid model in Europe.

I like the American system better only because it gives everyone a chance. I just can't see getting excited about a season when realistically only 2 or 3 clubs have a chance of winning a title (maybe add a club or 2 for the EPL). The Euro system also provides a cushion for lousy management or ownership - both of which are just not tolerated in most US markets.

I agree most national competitions are utterly boring. Like the German Bundesliga should be one of the most interesting competitions in the world. The football culture is friendly, enthousiastic and broad. Stadiums are full and clubs are financially stable and well managed. And lots of cities who provide a big fanbase. But Bayern Munich has managed to create a monopoly position where they've won the title 12 of the last 13 seasons.

[Kuberski33]

Yeah the pyramid part is tough. Right now I'm watching Chelsea v. Benfica in the Club World Cup. Benfica is, I believe, in a situation similar to Ajax. They dominate domestically but in the grand scheme of things aren't super wealthy so they're forced to sell their best players on a regular basis. It is obvious that Chelsea is more talented so it was just a matter of time before they went ahead. So much of Euro football works like this. You can repeat this for Bayern Munich vs Werder Bremen, Barcelona vs Real Betis etc. It's all the same.

[action781]

I dislike the playoffs culture in American sports. I wish NBA did that where the (regular) season champion is the champion and that's that.  You'd get such a more competitive regular season.

It'd be better if it was shorter though, like Nov 11 - May 30 (ish), 29 weeks, every team plays one game every Mon-Thurs, one game every Fri-Sun.  58 total games (play every team twice).  Eliminate divisions/conferences (teams don't travel by bus any more and they are meaningless).  Season ends on a Sunday and All-star weekend is the following one. 

Not a chance of happening, but I'd like to see it.  Relegation and promotion with the g-league would be awesome too.  Although the draft would have to be reconsidered as it would be madness (but also kinda cool) if a Portland Maine ended up lucking into a Wemby.

[action781]

I've thought about a two-tiered promotion/relegation system in the NBA before.  Two divisions of twenty teams each.  Top 2 in B get promoted and bottom 2 in A get demoted after each season. 

My vision for the cities how I think they'd roughly fall:

A Division
NYK
LA Lakers
Boston
Golden State
Philly
Chicago
Miami
Detroit
Orlando
Atlanta
Washington
San Antonio
Dallas
Houston
Denver
Phoenix
Indiana
OKC
Brooklyn
San Diego (old LAC)

B Division
Charlotte
Memphis
Milwaukee
New Orleans
Minnesota
Portland
Sacramento
Cleveland
Utah
Las Vegas (expansion)
Tampa (expansion)
Seattle (expansion)
Baltimore (expansion)
Nashville (expansion)
St Louis (expansion)
Kansas City (expansion)
Cincinnati (expansion)
Pittsburgh (expansion)
Jacksonville (expansion)
Buffalo (expansion)

Notice this is all USA teams (like how Euro leagues work I think?). You could scrap some of those B league expansion teams and invite Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Mexico City to make it a league of all the North American powerhouse metro areas.

This promotion/relegation + a regular season champ (no playoffs) + teams only playing twice per week would make the NBA regular season games so intense.  I wouldn't miss a game for my team.  Just fun to think about.