Who would you build a franchise around, all-time?

[Moranis]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone. 

[Who]

LeBron would fare very well in this.

I would probably play him as a PG in the 1980s scenario. He dribbles the ball so much it would be hard for him to play that way at a position other than PG.

G - LeBron
G - Chris Ford
F - B King
F - Caldwell Jones
C - Sikma

or

G - LeBron
G - Walter Davis
F - S Wedman
F - Billy Paultz
C - Daryl Dawkins

[Who]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

A fun hypothetical I like to wonder about is how would Jordan have done in place of (1) Larry Bird on the 1980s Celtics (2) Magic Johnson on the 1980s Lakers.

G: Tiny / DJ
G: Jordan
F: C Maxwell / Wedman / Reggie Lewis
F: K McHale
C: Parish

I think Jordan would have killed in that team. Imagine him with two post presences like McHale & Parish. Quality PGs. The SF position would be a bit of a revolving door through the 1980s without Bird. Maybe they trade Ainge for a SF to replace Max.

Would that team have won more or less than the 3 rings Bird won? Begrudgingly ... I believe they would have won more.

G: Nixon
G: Jordan
F: Wilkes / Worthy
F: Chones / Rambis / AC Green
C: Kareem

LAL probably don't do the Nixon for Byron Scott trade. No need with Jordan a natural SG. No Magic to make ways for. A Nixon career ending injury is a variable. Let's just ignore that and assume he stays healthy through the 80s. That would take him to 34 years of age in 1989-90.

That team would have been so much fun. I am not sure whether they still win 5 titles as the did with Magic. Or more. Or less. But they would have been a titan for sure.

Imagine Jordan getting to play with a 25ppg 3-5apg low post guy like Kareem. Amazing. A wing scorer at SF who can get you 20ppg. A very good PG in Nixon who was an 17-8 guy. Generally deep benches beyond the starters. A glue guy at PF. AC Green would have been a great fit with his floor running.

[Roy H.]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

At the same time, Wilt fell short with some extremely stacked teams.

If there's one player who has shown that he can be dominant with the "one all-star, one near all-star, two average starters" format, it's Jordan.

[Moranis]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

At the same time, Wilt fell short with some extremely stacked teams.

If there's one player who has shown that he can be dominant with the "one all-star, one near all-star, two average starters" format, it's Jordan.

Pippen is not just an all star though. He was a top 5 MVP level of player in his prime.

Also, what are these stacked teams that Wilt came up short against?

[Who]

How do people feel about Shaq?

Could he lead a team to a title without a top 5 teammate? He had Penny in Orlando who was 1st Team All-NBA and 3rd in MVP voting in 1996. He had Kobe who was 1st team All-NBA and multiple top 5 MVP finishes while playing alongside Shaq. He had Wade who was 1st team All-NBA and an MVP candidate. I thought the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron in the late 00s.

Aside from the 2000-2006 stretch, it felt like Shaq lacked the seriouness & killer instinct of a great winner. He got swept in 1994, 1995, 1996, lost 4-1 in 1997, swept in 1998, swept in 1999. Then his prime was over after 2006.

So with Shaq, you get what? Half of his prime years where he is committed to the right levels and half where he isn't committed enough and his team's disappoint.

[Roy H.]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

At the same time, Wilt fell short with some extremely stacked teams.

If there's one player who has shown that he can be dominant with the "one all-star, one near all-star, two average starters" format, it's Jordan.

Pippen is not just an all star though. He was a top 5 MVP level of player in his prime.

Also, what are these stacked teams that Wilt came up short against?

Wilt won two titles in 13 seasons, despite having teams that included Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich with the Lakers.  Then you've got Nate Thurmond, Paul Arizin, Hal Greer, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Billy Cunningham, and Chet Walker, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame.  Then there are other guys who were very good players, such as Happy Hairston.

If Wilt is the most dominant player of all-time and the most incredible physical specimen then he shouldn't have lost 11 out of 13 seasons.  Particularly when surrounded by Hall of Famers.  But, Wilt didn't have the basketball IQ or leadership of some other all-time greats.  He'd rather put up stats and do stupid things like lead the league in assists, rather than being singularly focused on winning.

[Roy H.]

How do people feel about Shaq?

Could he lead a team to a title without a top 5 teammate? He had Penny in Orlando who was 1st Team All-NBA and 3rd in MVP voting in 1996. He had Kobe who was 1st team All-NBA and multiple top 5 MVP finishes while playing alongside Shaq. He had Wade who was 1st team All-NBA and an MVP candidate. I thought the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron in the late 00s.

Aside from the 2000-2006 stretch, it felt like Shaq lacked the seriouness & killer instinct of a great winner. He got swept in 1994, 1995, 1996, lost 4-1 in 1997, swept in 1998, swept in 1999. Then his prime was over after 2006.

So with Shaq, you get what? Half of his prime years where he is committed to the right levels and half where he isn't committed enough and his team's disappoint.

I don't think Kobe was top-5 in 2000, and that team lacked a consistent third-scorer.  Shaq carried that team to a title.

[Who]

How do people feel about Shaq?

Could he lead a team to a title without a top 5 teammate? He had Penny in Orlando who was 1st Team All-NBA and 3rd in MVP voting in 1996. He had Kobe who was 1st team All-NBA and multiple top 5 MVP finishes while playing alongside Shaq. He had Wade who was 1st team All-NBA and an MVP candidate. I thought the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron in the late 00s.

Aside from the 2000-2006 stretch, it felt like Shaq lacked the seriouness & killer instinct of a great winner. He got swept in 1994, 1995, 1996, lost 4-1 in 1997, swept in 1998, swept in 1999. Then his prime was over after 2006.

So with Shaq, you get what? Half of his prime years where he is committed to the right levels and half where he isn't committed enough and his team's disappoint.

I don't think Kobe was top-5 in 2000, and that team lacked a consistent third-scorer.  Shaq carried that team to a title.

I agree. Not top 5 in 2000. I thought Kobe was by 2001 and thereafter.

I am just looking at the All-NBA voting and Kobe was 2nd Team in 2001 That surprised me. Kobe was 7th in overall points. He finished by Iverson in his MVP campaign and Kidd at PG. KG was 6th in voting behind Duncan and C-Webb. Kidd had 423 points as the lowest number in the 1st team. Kobe had 411 points. KG actually had 424 points just ahead of Kidd but he was a forward and not a guard. Kidd got the nod. Very close between the 3 of them. T-Mac was 8th but 100 points further back. Not close.

[Moranis]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

At the same time, Wilt fell short with some extremely stacked teams.

If there's one player who has shown that he can be dominant with the "one all-star, one near all-star, two average starters" format, it's Jordan.

Pippen is not just an all star though. He was a top 5 MVP level of player in his prime.

Also, what are these stacked teams that Wilt came up short against?

Wilt won two titles in 13 seasons, despite having teams that included Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich with the Lakers.  Then you've got Nate Thurmond, Paul Arizin, Hal Greer, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Billy Cunningham, and Chet Walker, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame.  Then there are other guys who were very good players, such as Happy Hairston.

If Wilt is the most dominant player of all-time and the most incredible physical specimen then he shouldn't have lost 11 out of 13 seasons.  Particularly when surrounded by Hall of Famers.  But, Wilt didn't have the basketball IQ or leadership of some other all-time greats.  He'd rather put up stats and do stupid things like lead the league in assists, rather than being singularly focused on winning.

and yet most of those years he lost to an even more stacked Celtics team.  That is why I asked what years you felt he had a stacked team and came up short. Since you didn't actually answer I'll assume you dont have any.

[Roy H.]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. In fact he won 1 playoff game.  Pippen never missed the playoffs until his last year in which he played 23 games as. Bull so he could retire as one. Pippen obviously wasn't as good as Jordan, but I have no idea if Jordan could lead a team without another all time great to a title because he never did it. As I said, he won exactly 1 playoff game.  That is what makes this sort of thing difficult especially since we all know how much of an **** Jordan was to basically everyone.

At the same time, Wilt fell short with some extremely stacked teams.

If there's one player who has shown that he can be dominant with the "one all-star, one near all-star, two average starters" format, it's Jordan.

Pippen is not just an all star though. He was a top 5 MVP level of player in his prime.

Also, what are these stacked teams that Wilt came up short against?

Wilt won two titles in 13 seasons, despite having teams that included Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich with the Lakers.  Then you've got Nate Thurmond, Paul Arizin, Hal Greer, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Billy Cunningham, and Chet Walker, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame.  Then there are other guys who were very good players, such as Happy Hairston.

If Wilt is the most dominant player of all-time and the most incredible physical specimen then he shouldn't have lost 11 out of 13 seasons.  Particularly when surrounded by Hall of Famers.  But, Wilt didn't have the basketball IQ or leadership of some other all-time greats.  He'd rather put up stats and do stupid things like lead the league in assists, rather than being singularly focused on winning.

and yet most of those years he lost to an even more stacked Celtics team.  That is why I asked what years you felt he had a stacked team and came up short. Since you didn't actually answer I'll assume you dont have any.

Lol.  You crack me up.

If Wilt was as great as you say he was, he should have been able to get by the Celtics when he was playing alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. 

Bill Russell -- the real best shot-blocker of all-time, along with best defensive player of all-time -- outsmarted Wilt, who repeatedly crashed and burned when asked to play team basketball.

Wilt Chamberlain:  the most dominant player ever who failed to win 85% of the time.

[Moranis]

So 69 is the only year you mentioned.  Got it.  Wilt's team of 3 HOFers lost to Bill's team of 4 HOFers (I'm not counting Chaney and Sanders who made it not as players).

[Roy H.]

So 69 is the only year you mentioned.  Got it.  Wilt's team of 3 HOFers lost to Bill's team of 4 HOFers (I'm not counting Chaney and Sanders who made it not as players).

Chokey choke choke choke.

In your mind, Wilt is better than Russell; West is better than Hondo; and Baylor is better than Sam Jones.  And yet they lost, again.  Just like Wilt did 85% of the time.  He couldn't consistently win with West and Baylor, and he couldn't win with Greer, Cunningham, and Walker, either.

Wilt is the biggest underachiever in NBA history.  All he cared about was stats and fame.

[Csfan1984]

Wilt was better than Russell overall IMO.

But it isn't cut and dry. I liken it to modern Duncan vs KG question. There are plenty of good reasons to say KG is better than Duncan but Duncan has the victories/titles smacking you in the face. Can you be called the greatest or better than another player in your generation if you really suck at winning?

This brings up a lot of good "either or" debates. We should do these debates of x vs y player choices, along with polls. And let's not get too serious about these. Everyone has their reasons and opinions. I just enjoy hearing from everyone.

[Who]

It is interesting to think what Wilt might have been without Bill Russell as a rival.

So say Wilt enters the league in 1980 ...

Wilt started his career trying to prove he was the best dominant player in the league. He tried to score as much as he could. Rebound as much he could. Defended at a high level. But his team didn't win. Russell's team won. Wilt was criticized for being too focused on his scoring and not being enough of a team player.

Wilt eventually gives into the criticism and adapts his game. I forget the exact words but Russell said something like "Wilt became a better Bill Russell than I am". Something like that. Wilt mimicked Russell to such a degree in 1967 and went even further with the Lakers. Letting go of more and more scoring to his best Bill Russell impression. Defender, rebounder, offensive facilitator.

Okay, so back to 1980. Bill Russell is no longer the model center that everyone tries to immitate. In the 1970s we had a bunch of centers who were less focused on scoring and more on team play due to Russell's influence -- Unseld, W Reed, Cowens, B Walton.

But by 1980 there was a new model for the center position to be followed = Kareem's model. A man who had just won 5 MVPs in the 1970s and about to win a 6th in 1980. A title winner as a prolific scoring 30-35ppg.

Kareem would become the model that centers that followed him were expected to follow. To be your team's #1 scoring option. To run your offense through your center in the low post. Olajuwon, Ewing, D Robinson, Shaq, Alonzo Mourning were all asked to follow this model. Not the Russell model.

So if Wilt starts in 1980 and he is instead embraced for his scoring rather than criticized. If Kareem is held up as model modern center and not Bill Russell. If Kareem is the example Wilt is expected to live up to and emulate. What does Wilt look like in the 2nd half of his career? Does he ever become an offensive facilitator instead of a scorer? Does he continue scoring 25-30ppg for the whole decade?

I think so. I think Wilt's evolution during his career was specific to his era and more importantly to his rival Bill Russell. I don't think that change happens (to that extent) without having Russell as a rival who is beating him continually for years.