SGA v. Jokic

[Donoghus]

Who you got right now for MVP?

SGA

32.7 ppg 5.1 trb 6.2 ast   .525 FG% .373 3FG% .900 FT% 31.0 PER 14.2 WS 

*OKC best record in NBA  #1 seed in West

Jokic

28.9 ppg 13.0 trb 10.5 ast  .577 FG% .430 3FG% .800 FT% 32.3 PER 14.1 WS

*DEN 4th best record in NBA #2 seed in West

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I still have Jokic. I have no MVP fatigue on him. He's amazing.

[Neurotic Guy]

I didn?t know that Joker is going to average triple double this season.  Amazing to do what he does from the center position AND average more than 10 assists.   Will join the Big O and Westbrook as the only players who?ve managed the feat.  He?s the MVP.

[Who]

Close race between two top players having MVP caliber years. The deciding factor for me is team record. OKC well ahead of Denver in the standings.

So SGA > Jokic.

[Who]

The deciding factor for me is team record. OKC well ahead of Denver in the standings.

OKC 53-12
DEN 42-23

An 11 game difference in the standings is a huge margin.

OKC have had a lot of injury issues this season as well. Chet has only played 20 of their 65 games. Hartenstein has played 44 games after missing the start of the season. That is two of their top four players. Caruso has missed around 20 games as well.

DEN have had one big injury with A Gordon playing only 38 games. Close to the number Hartenstein played. Similar roles for their teams as well. Defensive glue guy. The rest of their starters have all played around 60 games.

The Nuggets bench is weaker than OKC's but (in my estimation) that has been offset by the injury difference. That makes the difference in team record loom large.

Also, OKC winning with all those small lineups due to big man injuries. Impressive. SGA has held that team together and kept them at the top of the league despite key injuries. Despite his team often being undersized and lacking in quality big men.

[Atzar]

Jokic.

I remember a quote from Larry Bird back when Lebron was in Cleveland the first time around.  He refused to trade for any of those Cleveland role players (I believe JJ Hickson was the subject of the quote) because, paraphrasing, Lebron made them look a hell of a lot better than they really were. 

I bring that up because I think Jokic does the same thing with that Denver roster.  That roster sucks in my opinion.  Decent guard in Murray.  Loose cannon in Westbrook.  Bunch of roleplayers who only eat if Jokic cooks.  Yet somehow they're in current possession of the 2 seed and are still generally considered contenders.  Even among people who don't have voter fatigue where he's concerned, I think the sheer weight he has to pull for that franchise is taken for granted.  He's absurd. 

Not taking anything from SGA.  He's the best pure scorer in the league right now.  But for MVP, I'm taking Jokic. 

[Who]

Strange steals & blocks numbers

Jokic & SGA are tied for steals with 1.8 steals per contest. Very impressive for Jokic to be that high in steals as a center. SGA one of the best thiefs in the NBA.

SGA has more blocks than Jokic with 1.1 blocks per game for SGA to 0.7 blocks per game for Jokic.

[Phantom255x]

SGA will probably win it due to OKC's record and "voter fatigue" with Jokic.

But it should be Jokic IMO. The guy is literally averaging a triple double right now (29/14/10 to be exact) and if you look at the stats/numbers for the Nuggets without Jokic compared to with him, it's vastly different. I think without Jokic, Denver would be a mere play-in team tbh.

[Who]

Both player's scoring is phenomenal but I want to focus on SGA for a second.

(1) 32.7ppg in only 34.3mpg
(2) 32.6ppg on 21.5 FGA + 8.9 FTA
(3) 8.9 FTA against 21.5 FGA for a 41.4% free throw rate
(4) 8.9 FTA on 90% FT%
(5) 6.2 assists per game
(6) Only 2.5 turnovers per game
(7) FG% 52.5% ... for a guard! In today's NBA!
[8] TS% of 64.4%

Those turnover numbers are outstanding. A huge part of his efficiency. Only 2.5 turnovers against 21.5 FGA and those 8.9 FTA show how much SGA is driving to the basket and putting pressure on the rim. Shot attempts which are more likely to result in turnovers than perimeter jump-shots.

The 6.2 assists showing he can defeat you with the pass if you show too much defensively to take away his scoring. Again, the 2.5 assists against 6.2 assists is a fine number nevermind when you add the 32.7ppg on top of it. Extraordinary efficiency.

[Who]

if you look at the stats/numbers for the Nuggets without Jokic compared to with him, it's vastly different. I think without Jokic, Denver would be a mere play-in team tbh.

I don't think either squad would the make the play-in without their star player ... which is strange.

Most elite teams are .500 squads without their franchise guy. But these two guys (1) are so special and (2) their squads around them are a bit more limited than normal.

OKC would have a good chance of being .500 and a play-in team if they got healthy seasons from Chet & Hartenstein but they didn't get that this year so I don't think they would've been a play-in team this season. I think they would have been .500 without SGA.

I believe we are seeing not just MVP caliber years from these two guys but All-Time great level seasons. What these two guys are doing is extraordinary.

[Who]

Has any guard other than Michael Jordan put up numbers like Shai has this season?

30ppg
6apg
5rpg

TS% = 64.4% = 10th best in league = rTS% +7.0%
Turnovers = 2.5 per game, let's say under 3

Edit

(1) Oscar Robertson. Multiple 30-10-10 type seasons with near league leading TS% for first 5 seasons. Then 30-10-6/7 for another 3 seasons with near league leading TS%. 8 seasons comparable to SGA & Michael Jordan. Oscar won 1 MVP in this time period dominated by Wilt & Russell who won all the other MVPs in this decade expect one to Wes Unseld in 1969.

(2) Jerry West had a 7 year stretch where he averaged 29.4ppg, 5.7apg 6.6rpg with near league leading TS%. He had one more season in 1970 where he averaged 31ppg 7.5apg 4.6rpg. Just dipped below 5rpg but close enough. So 8 seasons. Jerry won no MVPs in this time period.

(3) Harden would be another one. He had a 5 year stretch where he averaged 31.7ppg 8.5apg 6.7rpg. His efficiency wasn't as strong. Particularly turnovers. Harden averaged 4.9 turnovers per game for this period and his TS% was elite but slightly lower at top 20 levels rather than 10th.

No turnover numbers for West or Oscar. Although I believe both took good care of the ball and his would reflect well on them. Maybe not as elite as MJ or Shai but it would be strong.

Jerry and Oscar were both also great at getting to the foul line averagine 10+ attempts per game during those periods. As did Harden.

On MJ,

He had a 7 year stretch where he averaged 33.2ppg 6.4rpg 6.0apg 2.8spg. He averaged only 2.9 turnovers per game. A very low number for that production. He finished in the top 15 in TS% 4 times in those 7 years.

[Silas]

Has any guard other than Michael Jordan put up numbers like Shai has this season?

30ppg
6apg
5rpg

TS% = 64.4% = 10th best in league

Edit: Oscar Robertson. Multiple 30-10-10 type seasons with near league leading TS% for first 5 seasons. Then 30-10-6/7 for another 3 seasons with near league leading TS%. 8 seasons comparable to SGA & Michael Jordan.

Curry in 15/16 with....30.1p/g    6.7assists and 5.4rebs with a TS% of 66.9%  and..
in 20/21 32p/g   5.8 assists (close) and 5.4 rebs with a TS% of 65.5%

[Who]

Has any guard other than Michael Jordan put up numbers like Shai has this season?

30ppg
6apg
5rpg

TS% = 64.4% = 10th best in league

Edit: Oscar Robertson. Multiple 30-10-10 type seasons with near league leading TS% for first 5 seasons. Then 30-10-6/7 for another 3 seasons with near league leading TS%. 8 seasons comparable to SGA & Michael Jordan.

Curry in 15/16 with....30.1p/g    6.7assists and 5.4rebs with a TS% of 66.9%  and..
in 20/21 32p/g   5.8 assists (close) and 5.4 rebs with a TS% of 65.5%

Oh wow, I didn't think he would have the rebounds. Well done Steph.

[Who]

They said on TV the other night that Jokic would be the 1st player ever to finish in the top 3 in points per game, rebounds per game, and assists per game.

Wilt just missed the mark two times. He finished 4th/5th in points per game in the two seasons he finished top 3 in assists per game (2nd, 3rd) while also finishing 1st in rebounds both seasons.

[aefgogreen]

I lean toward SGA as he has great numbers and the Thunder have been so dominant. But I also must admit I can't be sure that the fact that Jokic has won it 3 times doesn't play into my decision. It shouldn't matter, but I am part human after all.