Rockets (30-14) at Celtics (32-14) Game #47 1/27/25

[jambr380]

Another concern, on a macro level, is Tatum simply hasn't been good the last month. Idk if he let the whole Brandon Jennings drama get to him, but he's been mostly mediocre since then for his standards. Even today, he only had like 2 points halfway into the 3rd, that's atrocious. He doesn't have to put up 35+ every night but for this month he's averaging 24 PPG (3-5 PPG less than usual) and frankly I think even the 24 is a bit skewed as he had two games where he had 33 and 38 points. He's mostly only around the 18-24 point range, with some 16s. And he's only shooting like 42%, which isn't terrible but again, it's lower than usual for him by a decent enough margin.

I hear you, but the Celtics were minus 13 in Tatum's 6 minutes off the court. His shot wasn't falling in the 1st half, but he was doing almost everything right in the 2nd half. He was getting blitzed at half court on every possession and was consistently making the right reads. If Jaylen can't exploit 1-on-1 matchups and the other players on the team can't knock down open shots, we are screwed.

Tatum definitely needs to be consistently better shooting the ball, but this loss isn't on him. We had a 12 point lead halfway through the 4th. It's not his bad 1st half shooting that lost us the game.

[Roy H.]

Another concern, on a macro level, is Tatum simply hasn't been good the last month. Idk if he let the whole Brandon Jennings drama get to him, but he's been mostly mediocre since then for his standards. Even today, he only had like 2 points halfway into the 3rd, that's atrocious. He doesn't have to put up 35+ every night but for this month he's averaging 24 PPG (3-5 PPG less than usual) and frankly I think even the 24 is a bit skewed as he had two games where he had 33 and 38 points. He's mostly only around the 18-24 point range, with some 16s. And he's only shooting like 42%, which isn't terrible but again, it's lower than usual for him by a decent enough margin.

I hear you, but the Celtics were minus 13 in Tatum's 6 minutes off the court. His shot wasn't falling in the 1st half, but he was doing almost everything right in the 2nd half. He was getting blitzed at half court on every possession and was consistently making the right reads. If Jaylen can't exploit 1-on-1 matchups and the other players on the team can't knock down open shots, we are screwed.

Tatum definitely needs to be consistently better shooting the ball, but this loss isn't on him. We had a 12 point lead halfway through the 4th. It's not his bad 1st half shooting that lost us the game.

I'm not wiling to hang the loss around his neck, but he only had two FGAs in the fourth quarter, as well.  He was a -6 in the quarter, when the game slipped away.  To quote Scal, he needs to play "with force".  Superstars can't sit back just probing the defense and shooting 3PTAs all game.

https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250127&game=HOUBOS

[jambr380]

Another concern, on a macro level, is Tatum simply hasn't been good the last month. Idk if he let the whole Brandon Jennings drama get to him, but he's been mostly mediocre since then for his standards. Even today, he only had like 2 points halfway into the 3rd, that's atrocious. He doesn't have to put up 35+ every night but for this month he's averaging 24 PPG (3-5 PPG less than usual) and frankly I think even the 24 is a bit skewed as he had two games where he had 33 and 38 points. He's mostly only around the 18-24 point range, with some 16s. And he's only shooting like 42%, which isn't terrible but again, it's lower than usual for him by a decent enough margin.

I hear you, but the Celtics were minus 13 in Tatum's 6 minutes off the court. His shot wasn't falling in the 1st half, but he was doing almost everything right in the 2nd half. He was getting blitzed at half court on every possession and was consistently making the right reads. If Jaylen can't exploit 1-on-1 matchups and the other players on the team can't knock down open shots, we are screwed.

Tatum definitely needs to be consistently better shooting the ball, but this loss isn't on him. We had a 12 point lead halfway through the 4th. It's not his bad 1st half shooting that lost us the game.

I'm not wiling to hang the loss around his neck, but he only had two FGAs in the fourth quarter, as well.  He was a -6 in the quarter, when the game slipped away.  To quote Scal, he needs to play "with force".  Superstars can't sit back just probing the defense and shooting 3PTAs all game.

https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250127&game=HOUBOS

I agree, Tatum sometimes swings from being too aggressive to not being aggressive enough. And he was obviously the latter in the 4th last night after lighting it up in the 3rd. Still, this Celtics team is constantly discussed as a 'super-team', so other guys need to step it up when Tatum is drawing double teams.

We lost that 12 point lead in like two minutes of game time through a combination of laying bricks and terrible D, so Tatum does deserve some blame. I wish Joe had found just 2-3 minutes there to rest him in the 2nd half. Maybe he just didn't have that extra gear to finish out the game.

[celticinorlando]

It is really sad how bad this team is at home.

[Phantom255x]

Another concern, on a macro level, is Tatum simply hasn't been good the last month. Idk if he let the whole Brandon Jennings drama get to him, but he's been mostly mediocre since then for his standards. Even today, he only had like 2 points halfway into the 3rd, that's atrocious. He doesn't have to put up 35+ every night but for this month he's averaging 24 PPG (3-5 PPG less than usual) and frankly I think even the 24 is a bit skewed as he had two games where he had 33 and 38 points. He's mostly only around the 18-24 point range, with some 16s. And he's only shooting like 42%, which isn't terrible but again, it's lower than usual for him by a decent enough margin.

I hear you, but the Celtics were minus 13 in Tatum's 6 minutes off the court. His shot wasn't falling in the 1st half, but he was doing almost everything right in the 2nd half. He was getting blitzed at half court on every possession and was consistently making the right reads. If Jaylen can't exploit 1-on-1 matchups and the other players on the team can't knock down open shots, we are screwed.

Tatum definitely needs to be consistently better shooting the ball, but this loss isn't on him. We had a 12 point lead halfway through the 4th. It's not his bad 1st half shooting that lost us the game.

I'm not wiling to hang the loss around his neck, but he only had two FGAs in the fourth quarter, as well.  He was a -6 in the quarter, when the game slipped away.  To quote Scal, he needs to play "with force".  Superstars can't sit back just probing the defense and shooting 3PTAs all game.

https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250127&game=HOUBOS

I agree, Tatum sometimes swings from being too aggressive to not being aggressive enough. And he was obviously the latter in the 4th last night after lighting it up in the 3rd. Still, this Celtics team is constantly discussed as a 'super-team', so other guys need to step it up when Tatum is drawing double teams.

We lost that 12 point lead in like two minutes of game time through a combination of laying bricks and terrible D, so Tatum does deserve some blame. I wish Joe had found just 2-3 minutes there to rest him in the 2nd half. Maybe he just didn't have that extra gear to finish out the game.

I agree with your original response. Tatum is definitely a great playmaker and it doesn't help that others are bricking shots and a few like Jaylen are playing with CTE at times.

But if Tatum wants to be that "superstar/MVP" kind of guy, he needs to be more consistent and that includes shooting the ball. I don't think other teams are doubling him or having some kind of elite gameplan against him every minute, it's just sometimes he defers a shot or if he does decide to shoot, it's a low-IQ 3 instead of attacking the basket. He scored 19 in the 2nd half primarily by attacking the basket and settling for easy jumpers.

[keevsnick]

Tatum, Brown and White have all been various levels of mediocre-->bad this past month, at least by their typical standards. You can survive one of those guys having an off stretch, but if all three are going to play below their typical level the Celtics will struggle.

I think its mostly been shooting wise where they've struggle. Passing wise Tatum and Brown have never been better. Still that's 3 of your 4 best players all having very bad shooting months. I don't know what the solution is other than to hope they turn it around.

I see people complaining about Tatum vs Brown's USG. Quarter rotations. Clutch time touches. ect ect. As long as all three of your primary ball handlers are going to be bricks it really doesn't matter.

[Vermont Green]

Looking at some stats, our starting unit and most used unit in this game, was -4 in points off turnovers (3 to 7) and -4 in second chance points (0 to 4).  That 8 point hole might not be so bad if we were closer to full strength but in this case, I think it made a big difference.

Overall, we were -14 points off turnovers and -4 second chance points.  We did OK against team that has been very good at offensive rebounding but -14 points off turnovers is not going to be a winning formula very often.

[Goldstar88]

Take away the cheap fouls, the fake travel Q, the Dillion flop and we win this game...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if we just subtracted 3 points from Houston's total, we'd win the game 

If we subtracted Dillon Brooks and pretended he didn't cook Jaylen for 48 minutes then we'd have not only won but thrashed them 

No, no, no. Joe should have called a timeout and told Jaylen to play better. Unfortunately, he chose not to do that. 

[Roy H.]

Take away the cheap fouls, the fake travel Q, the Dillion flop and we win this game...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if we just subtracted 3 points from Houston's total, we'd win the game 

If we subtracted Dillon Brooks and pretended he didn't cook Jaylen for 48 minutes then we'd have not only won but thrashed them 

No, no, no. Joe should have called a timeout and told Jaylen to play better. Unfortunately, he chose not to do that. 

Serious question, though:  when a defender is getting burned by a player, does it make sense to just keep doing the same coverages?

One of Joe's faults as a coach is that he's slow to make adjustments.  He's shown a pretty good ability to counter strategies game to game, but not within a game.  It's something he could get better at.

[Vermont Green]

Take away the cheap fouls, the fake travel Q, the Dillion flop and we win this game...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if we just subtracted 3 points from Houston's total, we'd win the game 

If we subtracted Dillon Brooks and pretended he didn't cook Jaylen for 48 minutes then we'd have not only won but thrashed them 

No, no, no. Joe should have called a timeout and told Jaylen to play better. Unfortunately, he chose not to do that. 

Serious question, though:  when a defender is getting burned by a player, does it make sense to just keep doing the same coverages?

One of Joe's faults as a coach is that he's slow to make adjustments.  He's shown a pretty good ability to counter strategies game to game, but not within a game.  It's something he could get better at.

Dillon Brooks is a career 35% 3-point shooter.  He went 10-15 in this game, career best by a large margin.  You can look at this both ways.  If the defensive scheme was to play Green or others tighter but concede that Brooks would get some shots, that seems like a reasonable scheme.  Is it smart to abandon that scheme after a player hits few shots or smarter to stick with it?  Of course if you knew in advance that Brooks would go 10-15, then the question is easy to answer.

I don't know the answer, just trying to add some perspective.  Green averages 20+ a game, Brooks 13.  If we end up in a 7 game series with HOU, do you think Brooks would hit 66% for 7 games?  Are you going to change your principle defensive scheme based on who comes out and hits a few shots?  I would not based on one game or one quarter.  Maybe adjust a little game to game in a 7 game series, like you say.

If it was a scheme thing by HOU, say they had figured out our double teams and were rolling guys wide open and getting dunks, then yes, you may need to adjust in game.  But someone just hitting shots they usually don't hit is different.  I am not sure it would be the right call, maybe.  We could play the same scheme against HOU for 10 games and Brooks would probably not come near 66% in any other game.

[ozgod]

Another concern, on a macro level, is Tatum simply hasn't been good the last month. Idk if he let the whole Brandon Jennings drama get to him, but he's been mostly mediocre since then for his standards. Even today, he only had like 2 points halfway into the 3rd, that's atrocious. He doesn't have to put up 35+ every night but for this month he's averaging 24 PPG (3-5 PPG less than usual) and frankly I think even the 24 is a bit skewed as he had two games where he had 33 and 38 points. He's mostly only around the 18-24 point range, with some 16s. And he's only shooting like 42%, which isn't terrible but again, it's lower than usual for him by a decent enough margin.

I hear you, but the Celtics were minus 13 in Tatum's 6 minutes off the court. His shot wasn't falling in the 1st half, but he was doing almost everything right in the 2nd half. He was getting blitzed at half court on every possession and was consistently making the right reads. If Jaylen can't exploit 1-on-1 matchups and the other players on the team can't knock down open shots, we are screwed.

Tatum definitely needs to be consistently better shooting the ball, but this loss isn't on him. We had a 12 point lead halfway through the 4th. It's not his bad 1st half shooting that lost us the game.

I'm not wiling to hang the loss around his neck, but he only had two FGAs in the fourth quarter, as well.  He was a -6 in the quarter, when the game slipped away.  To quote Scal, he needs to play "with force".  Superstars can't sit back just probing the defense and shooting 3PTAs all game.

https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250127&game=HOUBOS

I agree, Tatum sometimes swings from being too aggressive to not being aggressive enough. And he was obviously the latter in the 4th last night after lighting it up in the 3rd. Still, this Celtics team is constantly discussed as a 'super-team', so other guys need to step it up when Tatum is drawing double teams.

We lost that 12 point lead in like two minutes of game time through a combination of laying bricks and terrible D, so Tatum does deserve some blame. I wish Joe had found just 2-3 minutes there to rest him in the 2nd half. Maybe he just didn't have that extra gear to finish out the game.

I think that was because Ime started blitzing him sending two defenders as soon as he got the ball. He tried to pass it to Jaylen but Jaylen kept playing hero ball and throwing up bad shots in Brooks's face and making mistakes on the other end. I remember because Scal was screaming for them to pass the ball to Jaylen because Brooks was trash talking him and he wanted Jaylen to cook him...instead Jaylen threw up bricks and was the one who got cooked  That was when we lost our 11 point lead in the 4th and let them back in the game. Then he says this after the game:



Well duh! You had one job...

There is a silver lining, as there is in most of our losses this season though, which is why I'm not as concerned about them as others here may be (yet) - we were down 3 rotation players, we gave the game away with silly mistakes and lost by 2 while the other team had to have 2 guys score double their season averages to win. A loss is a loss, no moral victories, but if we had to play this team in a 7 game series I think we win 4-2. And ultimately that's what our team will be measured on, not getting the first seed in the regular season, but whether we can win 4 7 game playoff series. Whistling in the dark 

[Phantom255x]

I didn't like Jaylen saying out loud that "we don't expect Brooks to hit 10 3s in a game". Because while it may be true, it kind of looks bad when you consider the Warriors and Draymond came out last year and said they were daring Jaylen to shoot wide open 3s and he killed them while the C's blew them out by 50. It also feels like Jaylen is making "an excuse" saying "hey we're good, nothing to see here, Brooks won't score 36 most games". Except for the fact that it seems we always get the best shot from other teams and now there's a big enough sample size that even fringe starters or role players go off on us too this season.

It gives off the impression that they didn't really have a true gameplan on defense and that if Brooks did kill them, they also weren't willing to adjust. And frankly, they never did.

Jaylen was also pretty toast on defense in the 4th quarter, between all the miscommunications and just poor effort. I know some of it was also Kornet and others but it felt like Jaylen was involved in a lot of it too in some ways.

[SparzWizard]

I didn't like Jaylen saying out loud that "we don't expect Brooks to hit 10 3s in a game". Because while it may be true, it kind of looks bad when you consider the Warriors and Draymond came out last year and said they were daring Jaylen to shoot wide open 3s and he killed them while the C's blew them out by 50. It also feels like Jaylen is making "an excuse" saying "hey we're good, nothing to see here, Brooks won't score 36 most games". Except for the fact that it seems we always get the best shot from other teams and now there's a big enough sample size that even fringe starters or role players go off on us too this season.

It gives off the impression that they didn't really have a true gameplan on defense and that if Brooks did kill them, they also weren't willing to adjust. And frankly, they never did.

Jaylen was also pretty toast on defense in the 4th quarter, between all the miscommunications and just poor effort. I know some of it was also Kornet and others but it felt like Jaylen was involved in a lot of it too in some ways.

Yeah, what does he mean when he says "we don't expect Brooks to..." he needs to watch his phrasing of words and humble himself. Even if it is Dillon Brooks, don't disrespect the opposition. I don't particularly like Jaylen's antics this whole season...including the whole scuffle with Giannis, that throat slash gesture against the Pacers, there's a few more I can list on. Same with Tatum...like what was that back and forth comment with a bum like Brandon Jennings about anyway. Just keep it to yourself and work on your dang game.

JB's game lately has been abysmal and we're paying him $300M supermax...but with his phrasing of things with other players, I expect MORE from him otherwise start packing his bags.