What held back the 2023 team?

[Roy H.]

Porziņģis is an awesome player who makes our team much better. But, as we saw in the playoffs last year, so far this season, and even in last year's regular season, we don't need him to win. Without him, we are still probably the best team in the NBA

Brad got rid of Brogdon, Timelord and Smart.  For whatever reason, our team has been better without those three, with only replacing them with Jrue much of the time. The trade also allowed Pritchard and Hauser to take bigger roles.

Still, from a sheer talent perspective, replacing Jrue with Smart, Timelord, and Brogdon would seemingly be an upgrade.  It wasn't.  What went wrong / what was missing?

[Celtics2021]

The Celtics have gone through a series of two steps forward, one step back in the Tatum/Brown years.

2018: conference Finals
2019: crashed out vs Bucks in round 2
2020: conference finals
2021: snuck into the playoffs and lost in first round
2022: NBA Finals
2023: conference finals
2024: Champs!

I think that in general the players do well, get excited by their success, and don?t commit as much as they should the following season.  Then after that disappointment, they buckle down and come back better the next year, only for the cycle to repeat itself.  We will see if this year follows that pattern or not.  I hope it doesn?t, but last year I laid down a lot of pre-season bets on the Celtics because of that pattern, and this year I sat it out.

Sure, the change in personnel may have made some sort of impact from 2023 to 2024, but this goes way back to when in the pre-season Brown thought the 2018-2019 Celtics were as good as the 86 Celtics.  My hope this year is that their maturity will keep them from falling into that trap they fell into repeatedly when they were younger.

[Goldstar88]

Swap Jrue Holiday for Marcus Smart that year and the C?s would have won it all. Smarts decision making/shot selection was awful at times and you can?t really have that with your starting PG.

[Vermont Green]

I think the answer is clear and you basically said it.  We got Holiday to replace Smart, an upgrade, no matter how you want to slice it, where it matters most, in your top guys.  We had Pritchard replace Brogdon, not an upgrade, but not all that much of a regression either, the way that Pritchard played.  We are talking about a 6th man in any case.  And RWill was injured all the time so replacing him with Kornet and others wasn't that much of a step back.  Grant Williams was playing 20+ minutes on that team also.  He was kind of replaced by Hauser.

The rest is made up by improvement of players including Tatum, Brown, White.  All of these played key roles and played better.  You recall that the 2023 team played historically well until the MIA series.  The season started with an abrupt coaching change.  I think that had an impact.  Around the time of the MIA series, it was announced that Udoka was being hired by Houston.

[bdm860]

Isn't this an easy one?

Coaching upheaval. Udoka out at the last minute who had brought in several of his own guys, replaced by Mazzulla who was not a Udoka guy (who many view as not ready), already down 1 key assistant (Hardy), lost another mid year (Stoudamire), leaving Mazzulla to lead a bunch of Udoka guys who were probably not at all happy about the situation. The easy surface answer is Mazzulla wasn't ready, but I think really it's a lot deeper and more complicated than that (because even if he was ready, that's just a terrible situation to step into).

Injuries. Rob Williams was not Rob Williams of 2022 (really his only healthy season). Brogdon got injured (Game 2 against the Heat I think), went from averaging 15.6 and being +90 in the playoffs, to averaging 0.5 and was a -36 over final 5 games (sitting out 1 completely) shooting 1-16. And then Tatum sprains his ankle like 1 minute into Game 7.

Also I suspect now that Brogdon (despite winning 6MOY) was a little more disgruntled than he let on. Add to this the contract situation of others in '23: Brown, Pritchard had extensions coming up, Grant Williams was a free agent. All this impacts team chemistry.

Despite what went wrong, maybe a Tatum or Brogdon injury away from the Finals.

And some of what went right the next year is positive growth from Tatum/Brown (trading Smart and to a lesser extent Rob was probably a wake up call that this is a business, and helped force them to step up). They weren't the first young team to get to the Finals in and not return the following year ('86 Rockets w/ Hakeem/Sampson, '95 Magic w/ Shaq/Penny, '99 Spurs w/ Duncan, '01 Sixers w/ Iverson, '06 Heat w/ Wade, '07 Cavs w/ LeBron, '12 Thunder w/ Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, etc. and we see other more-in-their-prime superstars like Duncan, Dirk, Giannis, Jokic) unable to make it back in consecutive years). And just a better fit with Holiday/Porzingis (vets happy with their role) and other growth (Pritchard/Hauser), and a full, prepared coaching staff.

[Kernewek]

Isn't this an easy one?

Coaching upheaval. Udoka out at the last minute who had brought in several of his own guys, replaced by Mazzulla who was not a Udoka guy (who many view as not ready), already down 1 key assistant (Hardy), lost another mid year (Stoudamire), leaving Mazzulla to lead a bunch of Udoka guys who were probably not at all happy about the situation. The easy surface answer is Mazzulla wasn't ready, but I think really it's a lot deeper and more complicated than that (because even if he was ready, that's just a terrible situation to step into).

Injuries. Rob Williams was not Rob Williams of 2022 (really his only healthy season). Brogdon got injured (Game 2 against the Heat I think), went from averaging 15.6 and being +90 in the playoffs, to averaging 0.5 and was a -36 over final 5 games (sitting out 1 completely) shooting 1-16. And then Tatum sprains his ankle like 1 minute into Game 7.

Also I suspect now that Brogdon (despite winning 6MOY) was a little more disgruntled than he let on. Add to this the contract situation of others in '23: Brown, Pritchard had extensions coming up, Grant Williams was a free agent. All this impacts team chemistry.

Despite what went wrong, maybe a Tatum or Brogdon injury away from the Finals.

And some of what went right the next year is positive growth from Tatum/Brown (trading Smart and to a lesser extent Rob was probably a wake up call that this is a business, and helped force them to step up). They weren't the first young team to get to the Finals in and not return the following year ('86 Rockets w/ Hakeem/Sampson, '95 Magic w/ Shaq/Penny, '99 Spurs w/ Duncan, '01 Sixers w/ Iverson, '06 Heat w/ Wade, '07 Cavs w/ LeBron, '12 Thunder w/ Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, etc. and we see other more-in-their-prime superstars like Duncan, Dirk, Giannis, Jokic) unable to make it back in consecutive years). And just a better fit with Holiday/Porzingis (vets happy with their role) and other growth (Pritchard/Hauser), and a full, prepared coaching staff.

Agreed.

[Phantom255x]

There must have been some stuff inside the locker room which affected things that we don't know about publicly, and I point to two players in that: Smart + GWill.

G-Will is seen as a jokester but maybe he's one of those guys who doesn't take things too seriously and/or probably has a bit of an ego himself (remember the "I'll make both" FTs comment he said in the Cavs game, then missed). I loved Smart but he seemed to be someone who thought he was part of a "Big 3" with Tatum + Brown and also had no issue undermining Mazzulla publicly. I know Jaylen and a few others like Brogdon didn't see eye to eye with Mazzulla in 2023 as well but idk, maybe Smart influenced their thoughts as well?

Brogdon was an awesome 6th man but it seems like there were rumors that he thought he deserved a bigger role. Which he probably did, but it might have affected the locker room as well?

When I watch this team now, it's purely teamwork and no egos. Even Jaylen has put his head down and made instrumental strides over the last 1.5 seasons to get to where he is today, including last year's ECF + Finals MVPs. The Jays have grown into leaders and say what you will, but Mazzulla has also learned from 2023 it seems and grown.

[dannyboy35]

 Smart

[tenn_smoothie]

Roy, I think you are dismissing or at least minimizing Porzingis's impact. Saying we may be the best team in the league anyway without him is quite a reach. We got thru a favorable playoff bracket last season, but Porzingis still made a major impact in two finals games. He also was one of the main reasons for the team's best record and that impact was enjoyed over the long season. They have won 4 games this year without him - a tiny sample. If the Celts do not have Porzingis, someone has to pick up his points, rebounds and defense over 82 games. Not likely.

[Roy H.]

Roy, I think you are dismissing or at least minimizing Porzingis's impact. Saying we may be the best team in the league anyway without him is quite a reach. We got thru a favorable playoff bracket last season, but Porzingis still made a major impact in two finals games. He also was one of the main reasons for the team's best record and that impact was enjoyed over the long season. They have won 4 games this year without him - a tiny sample. If the Celts do not have Porzingis, someone has to pick up his points, rebounds and defense over 82 games. Not likely.

We went 21-4 without him in the regular season without him, and 10-2 in the playoffs.  Thats a 69 win pace.  Which team would you say has been better?

[scaryjerry]

Coaching change and no jrue. His calming presence has made a massive difference, bald Derrick white has a whole different swagger and the jays mature each season.

[Atzar]

When accounting for internal player improvements, I thought the 2024 Celtics were equal or better at nearly every single position - including the coaching staff.  The only exception is the move from Brogdon to Pritchard at backup guard, but even then there's something to be said for availability and attitude. 

I think one of the underrated storylines of 2024 was White's emergence.  In 2023, he was a very useful player but was kinda buried behind Smart in terms of offensive role.  In 2024, Smart's gone, Jrue comes in and fits like a glove while playing within the system far better than Smart ever did, and White spreads his wings as a near All Star level guard.  I still have love for Smart but those points are not unrelated imho. 

[jambr380]

You all are honestly so ungrateful pointing to Smart as the main problem. Look it up, he actually was really good in the playoffs, while some of our main pieces were terrible (looking at you game 7 Brown). Brogdon, TL, and Tatum being hurt didn?t help and Joe was still super wet behind the ears. Completely different coach last year and our playoff path was finally an easy one.

I?m not going to get into it with you guys about Smart. There?s no way you can explain it that I won?t think you are completely wrong. It really is jaw dropping stuff. He helped build the culture that this team became and always left it all out on the floor. The team overachieved for years with him as their 3rd best player.

[tenn_smoothie]

Roy, I think you are dismissing or at least minimizing Porzingis's impact. Saying we may be the best team in the league anyway without him is quite a reach. We got thru a favorable playoff bracket last season, but Porzingis still made a major impact in two finals games. He also was one of the main reasons for the team's best record and that impact was enjoyed over the long season. They have won 4 games this year without him - a tiny sample. If the Celts do not have Porzingis, someone has to pick up his points, rebounds and defense over 82 games. Not likely.

We went 21-4 without him in the regular season without him, and 10-2 in the playoffs.  Thats a 69 win pace.  Which team would you say has been better?

I just think the demand of replacing his contributions, whether straight numbers + defensive ability or the fatigue/wear and tear of other players having to fill those minutes would make it much more difficult to win titles and be the league's best team. Not impossible, but much less likely.

[scaryjerry]

You all are honestly so ungrateful pointing to Smart as the main problem. Look it up, he actually was really good in the playoffs, while some of our main pieces were terrible (looking at you game 7 Brown). Brogdon, TL, and Tatum being hurt didn?t help and Joe was still super wet behind the ears. Completely different coach last year and our playoff path was finally an easy one.

I?m not going to get into it with you guys about Smart. There?s no way you can explain it that I won?t think you are completely wrong. It really is jaw dropping stuff. He helped build the culture that this team became and always left it all out on the floor. The team overachieved for years with him as their 3rd best player.

To be fair you?re probably right?both the 22 and 23 team probably win the title with last years path?it was simply there year last season