Jrue Holiday: Hall of Famer?

[Who]

If holiday is maybe does that make Horford a lock?

Holiday was the 3rd best player on 2 title teams.

Horford was the 5th best player on 1 title team.

[SHAQATTACK]

If he guides C?s to his third title , yup. A lock .

[jambr380]

If holiday is maybe does that make Horford a lock?

Holiday was the 3rd best player on 2 title teams.

Horford was the 5th best player on 1 title team.

Horford has the two NCAA Titles as well and is a 5x All-Star (1x 3rd Team All-NBA). Also, while Jrue was the 3rd most important player in the Celtics playoff run (which is obviously important), I wouldn't say he was definitively the 3rd best player on the Celtics. KP and White probably edged him out in the regular season at least. That logic does knock down Horford to 6th, though.

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

[Roy H.]

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

I'd be happy to see them both get in.  Reward the guys who play both ends at a high level.

[Who]

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

I'd be happy to see them both get in.  Reward the guys who play both ends at a high level.

I view both of them as in.

I disagree with the idea that Horford has a much stronger case than Jrue. That if Jrue is in, therefore Horford must be a lock.

Jrue has a strong edge in team success (titles) and his importance to that team success over Horford. That was the point I was trying to make. Horford has more individual success, more regular season team success with him playing a more important role in that regular season team success than Jrue has.

Regular season success is much less important to the HoF than post-season success. And titles much more important than long post-season runs. Titles are king when it comes to the team success side of the ledger.

[celticsclay]

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

I'd be happy to see them both get in.  Reward the guys who play both ends at a high level.

I view both of them as in.

I disagree with the idea that Horford has a much stronger case than Jrue. That if Jrue is in, therefore Horford must be a lock.

Jrue has a strong edge in team success (titles) and his importance to that team success over Horford. That was the point I was trying to make. Horford has more individual success, more regular season team success with him playing a more important role in that regular season team success than Jrue has.

Regular season success is much less important to the HoF than post-season success. And titles much more important than long post-season runs. Titles are king when it comes to the team success side of the ledger.

Do you guys all just think the basketball reference hall of fame odds are completely out of whack? They have Horford at 29 and jrue at 1. This certainly isn?t this my area of expertise but the times I have looked over their odds over the years they have seemed fairly reasonable.

[Who]

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

I'd be happy to see them both get in.  Reward the guys who play both ends at a high level.

I view both of them as in.

I disagree with the idea that Horford has a much stronger case than Jrue. That if Jrue is in, therefore Horford must be a lock.

Jrue has a strong edge in team success (titles) and his importance to that team success over Horford. That was the point I was trying to make. Horford has more individual success, more regular season team success with him playing a more important role in that regular season team success than Jrue has.

Regular season success is much less important to the HoF than post-season success. And titles much more important than long post-season runs. Titles are king when it comes to the team success side of the ledger.

Do you guys all just think the basketball reference hall of fame odds are completely out of whack? They have Horford at 29 and jrue at 1. This certainly isn?t this my area of expertise but the times I have looked over their odds over the years they have seemed fairly reasonable.

I have found them very good predictors in the past.

Both Jrue & Horford are unusual cases though. Maybe that is why they are slipping through the cracks.

[Kernewek]

That said, they are both HOFers to me. I just don't think you can say Horford definitely isn't while Jrue definitely is.

I'd be happy to see them both get in.  Reward the guys who play both ends at a high level.

I view both of them as in.

I disagree with the idea that Horford has a much stronger case than Jrue. That if Jrue is in, therefore Horford must be a lock.

Jrue has a strong edge in team success (titles) and his importance to that team success over Horford. That was the point I was trying to make. Horford has more individual success, more regular season team success with him playing a more important role in that regular season team success than Jrue has.

Regular season success is much less important to the HoF than post-season success. And titles much more important than long post-season runs. Titles are king when it comes to the team success side of the ledger.

Do you guys all just think the basketball reference hall of fame odds are completely out of whack? They have Horford at 29 and jrue at 1. This certainly isn?t this my area of expertise but the times I have looked over their odds over the years they have seemed fairly reasonable.

I have found them very good predictors in the past.

Both Jrue & Horford are unusual cases though. Maybe that is why they are slipping through the cracks.

Also possible that because they're guys who didn't do very much of note (in Hall of Fame terms) until the back half of their careers the weighting of the BBREF model isn't being very favourable to them.

[mobilija]

If NCAA titles matter, Horford is a lock.

Add in the longevity, health and steadiness of his career all while being an incredible ambassador of the game. It?s not all about counting titles and all-star appearances.

[Who]

If NCAA titles matter, Horford is a lock.

The NCAA titles are interesting. How much do they matter in general and how much should they matter specifically in Horford's case?

On one hand, winning back-to-back NCAA titles is highly impressive. It is a major separator from most other NCAA Champions.

On the other hand, how dominant was Horford individually? Was he even the best player on the team? I tended to look at Joakim Noah as the superior college player. The leader of their team. The leader of their defense. Their emotional leader. The guy who others followed. I thought most people did think this at that time. That Noah was the better college player and Horford was the better pro prospect because he had more offensive potential (room for growth).

And then how dominant individually was Horford in college? He and Noah had remarkably similar numbers. Both around 12ppg 8rpg 2apg 2bpg 1spg over their two NCAA titles. They were very good but not All-Time dominant college players (individually speaking).

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Horford and Noah were both 2 times All-SEC and 1 time NCAA All-Tourney & 1 time NCAA All-Regional. Horford has an SEC Tourney MVP which Noah does not. Noah has an NCAA Tourney MOP which Horford does not. And Noah was a consensus All American which Horford was not. 

[Kernewek]

I think NCAA titles, like NBA titles, are not consistently weighted for the Hall voters - and things like the Horford/Noah divide are a good reason why - Noah was arguably the better player in College, but Horford has the longevity (and now the ring) in the NBA to differentiate him.

[Roy H.]

I think NCAA titles, like NBA titles, are not consistently weighted for the Hall voters - and things like the Horford/Noah divide are a good reason why - Noah was arguably the better player in College, but Horford has the longevity (and now the ring) in the NBA to differentiate him.

It all gets complicated.  Bill Walton probably doesn't deserve to be in for his NBA career.  Grant Hill would be borderline.  But, they're fairly uncontroversial picks.  In their cases, the NCAA is wildly important.  Meanwhile, guys like Larry Johnson and Christian Laettner will never come close.

[scaryjerry]

He?s easily in my hall of fame. I?m convinced we don?t win a title without him.

[green_bballers13]

Yeah, Jrue deserves it. He's a two way player that has won two rings on two teams. He plays like the heart and soul of the team (as does DWhite). I'm not sure about the stats, but he's got my vote for his career accomplishments.

[gift]

Horford needs to make sure he retires a good two years before Jrue. Because I think both are HOF but when Horford gets in, Jrue will be a no-brainer. If Jrue gets in first, many will argue he's not a HOF and then Horford's case becomes weaker (in other people's eyes, not mine).