All Time Celtics Team

[Vermont Green]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

Without giving it too much thought, I'd love to stick Reggie Lewis up there somewhere.

Hurts that he's never mentioned in these lists, but he was a legit 2-way player. Just ask MJ.

[Roy H.]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

Interesting that you went with Cousy for the modern game. 

[Redz]

White and Cowens are historically underrated on this board.  Those 70's Celts were tough as nails during a very competitive era.  Jo Jo especially deserves more love.

[liam]

I was waiting until after the Finals to put this together.  Going forward, I want to do specialist teams as well (e.g. All Defense, All Fast Break etc).

Let me know what I got wrong (and if you're inclined, what I got right :-)

First Team
Bill Russell
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy

Second Team
Dave Cowens
Kevin McHale
Jayson Tatum
Sam Jones
Jojo White

Third Team
Robert Parish
Tommy Heinsohn
Paul Pierce
Jaylen Brown
Bill Sharman

A couple of notes... Obviously, McHale had a bigger long-term impact on the Celtics than KG.  I tried to pick players at their peak, and KG's DPOY, All-First Team NBA and overall intensity in the playoffs in 2008 tipped the scales.  I'm sure others feel that McHale should be above him and I can't say you're wrong.

It killed me leaving DJ off  - after Bird, he was my favorite Celtic.  But Jaylen stepped up this season (and particularly in the Finals) more than I expected.  Sharman was before my time, but all those First Team All-NBA appearances have to count for something.  And I didn't think it was right to kick off Tommy or Chief. I guess this is what you call an embarrassment of riches.

If you get the guy in his best season you have to have Walton and Pistol Pete on there. Shaq and Dominic as well.

Not that I could take this assignment particularly seriously (Jordan Crawford first, second, third, and fourth team, anyone?), but you'd have to be talking about the best season with the Celtics, surely.

Good point.

[aefgogreen]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

I?m keeping positions, generally - two shooting guards are ok in one lineup but not three centers e.g. I also valued peak performance in their era over longevity. Others favor longevity, which is perfectly fair.

[Moranis]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

If you go by Winshares the 10 best seasons in order are

Bill
Bill
Macauley
Bird
Bird
Bill
Bird
Bird
McHale
Macauley

I think winshares gives a more accurate list, but what both lists tell me is we all have probably underrated Macauley.

[Roy H.]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

If you go by Winshares the 10 best seasons in order are

Bill
Bill
Macauley
Bird
Bird
Bill
Bird
Bird
McHale
Macauley

I think winshares gives a more accurate list, but what both lists tell me is we all have probably underrated Macauley.

He played six years here, with no titles.  In terms of Celtics legacy it's hard to put him top-15.

As for PER and other flawed statistical formulas, isn't it hard to use those to rate players before some of the stats in the formula were even counted?

[Who]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

When did Parish get such a high PER?

I wouldn't have expected him to be a high PER player. A good one but not a top one.

[Vermont Green]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

Interesting that you went with Cousy for the modern game.

PG is a tough one. Even in the modern game, you need a PG or Combo Guard.  Current Celtics play with two starting combo guards.  There is not a ton of separation for this spot. 

[Roy H.]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

Interesting that you went with Cousy for the modern game.

PG is a tough one. Even in the modern game, you need a PG or Combo Guard.  Current Celtics play with two starting combo guards.  There is not a ton of separation for this spot.

I say go crazy, and have Hondo play point, haha.

Outside of that, I'm not sure.  DJ, Danny, Rondo, Tiny and JoJo would all have strengths.

[liam]

Do we do this like the all nba is now (positionless) or do we have to fit the players into the traditionally position slots?  I might have Bird, Tatum, and Pierce all in the top 5, but they play the same position.  I am going to just rank by position and see how that looks.

PG:   Cousy, Johnson, Kyrie (kidding)
SG:   Havlicek, Brown(?), Sam Jones
SF:    Bird, Tatum, Pierce
PF:    McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett
C:     Russell, Parrish, Cowens

If I was to pick a top 5 to play in the game today, I might have the following:

Cousy
Pierce
Tatum
Bird
Russell

Havlicek is the one who could edge out Pierce or Tatum but I am not scoring based on longevity.  When you start to look at the team in this way, you start to realize just how good this team is.

Interesting that you went with Cousy for the modern game.

PG is a tough one. Even in the modern game, you need a PG or Combo Guard.  Current Celtics play with two starting combo guards.  There is not a ton of separation for this spot.

I say go crazy, and have Hondo play point, haha.

Outside of that, I'm not sure.  DJ, Danny, Rondo, Tiny and JoJo would all have strengths.

"Havlicek wiEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.lly said said that had he known ?this kid Bird? was coming, he would have hung around two more years until he was 40 to play with Larry. It would have been fitting to see him go out with a title as sixth man over the Lakers in 1979-80, Bird?s rookie campaign, and passing the torch to Larry.

For Hondo had served as the bridge from the Cousy/Russell dynasty throught he 1970s big three of Cowens/Hondo/JoJo almost all the way to the third dynasty, the Bird era.

Certainly he could have lasted that long had he wanted to, as he scoed 16.1 ppg at age 38 in his last season. But the 32-50 Celtics were in grave decline by then, having missed the playoffs for only the third time in his 16 seasons.

Harvard University even tested his legendary stamina at one point and found out his lungs were exceptionally large, as was his heart, and that his resting heart rate was in the low 40s."

[Moranis]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

When did Parish get such a high PER?

I wouldn't have expected him to be a high PER player. A good one but not a top one.

sorry that was Pierce not Chief. Wrote wrong name

[Moranis]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

If you go by Winshares the 10 best seasons in order are

Bill
Bill
Macauley
Bird
Bird
Bill
Bird
Bird
McHale
Macauley

I think winshares gives a more accurate list, but what both lists tell me is we all have probably underrated Macauley.

He played six years here, with no titles.  In terms of Celtics legacy it's hard to put him top-15.

As for PER and other flawed statistical formulas, isn't it hard to use those to rate players before some of the stats in the formula were even counted?

Wilt has the 2nd highest single season PER only Jokic has a season better (Wilt has 3 of the top 8 seasons). Still works just fine without 3 point FG's included.

[Roy H.]

If you go by PER the ten best seasons in order are

Bird
Bird
IT4
Bird
Bird
KG
Chief
Kyrie
Kyrie
Macauley

If you go by Winshares the 10 best seasons in order are

Bill
Bill
Macauley
Bird
Bird
Bill
Bird
Bird
McHale
Macauley

I think winshares gives a more accurate list, but what both lists tell me is we all have probably underrated Macauley.

He played six years here, with no titles.  In terms of Celtics legacy it's hard to put him top-15.

As for PER and other flawed statistical formulas, isn't it hard to use those to rate players before some of the stats in the formula were even counted?

Wilt has the 2nd highest single season PER only Jokic has a season better (Wilt has 3 of the top 8 seasons). Still works just fine without 3 point FG's included.

Blocks, steals, turnovers and a differentiation between ORBs and DRBs also are calculated in PER.  Either you knew that and ignored it in an effort to make your argument stronger, or you didn't know it.  Either way, it undercuts your argument.