Finals Game 1 MVP Poll: BOS 107 DAL 89

[Moranis]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

[Moranis]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

If anything it just shows a really small sample of Tatumless time because he played so many minutes.  You also need to take into account who was on the floor/bench during those minutes for Dallas.

full playoffs on/off differential per 100 possessions

Brown -11.4

How about playoffs last year

Brown -7.1

Or year before

Brown -1.5

Or maybe 2020

Brown -4.7

Or 2019

Brown -16.3

Or 2018

Brown -0.1

What about that rookie year, hey a positive as a bench player

Brown +1.3

[Moranis]

Boston was 12-0 without Brown in the regular season this year.  They were 11-4 last year as well. 

Brown is a very good player, but he simply doesn't move the needle on this team because he is essentially a much worse version of Tatum. And when Brown isn't in the game, Tatum plays better, thus the team is better without Brown in the game. Brown does not compliment Tatum and Brown isnt good enough to carry the load when Tatum is on the bench.

[Redz]

Boston was 12-0 without Brown in the regular season this year.  They were 11-4 last year as well. 

Brown is a very good player, but he simply doesn't move the needle on this team because he is essentially a much worse version of Tatum. And when Brown isn't in the game, Tatum plays better, thus the team is better without Brown in the game. Brown does not compliment Tatum and Brown isnt good enough to carry the load when Tatum is on the bench.

So sit him out the rest of the way?

What's your point?

But I do agree.  Brown should say more nice things about Tatum.

[Roy H.]

Boston was 12-0 without Brown in the regular season this year.  They were 11-4 last year as well. 

Brown is a very good player, but he simply doesn't move the needle on this team because he is essentially a much worse version of Tatum. And when Brown isn't in the game, Tatum plays better, thus the team is better without Brown in the game. Brown does not compliment Tatum and Brown isnt good enough to carry the load when Tatum is on the bench.

The Celts had an .875 winning percentage without Tatum this year, and had a .770 winning percentage with him.

Clearly, Tatum hurts the team and our ability to win.  Hell, a Tatum-less team projects to have won 72 games, while with him playing every game we only would have won 63.  His "value" to the team is an extra nine losses!!!!

[Celtics2021]

Boston was 12-0 without Brown in the regular season this year.  They were 11-4 last year as well. 

Brown is a very good player, but he simply doesn't move the needle on this team because he is essentially a much worse version of Tatum. And when Brown isn't in the game, Tatum plays better, thus the team is better without Brown in the game. Brown does not compliment Tatum and Brown isnt good enough to carry the load when Tatum is on the bench.

So sit him out the rest of the way?

What's your point?

But I do agree.  Brown should say more nice things about Tatum.

TP for actually making me laugh out loud.

[Celtics2021]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

They also aren’t directly comparable, so what’s your point?  The sampling issues with single-game +/- numbers make them unusable.

[Roy H.]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

Hauser: +17 in 16 minutes
Tatum: +19 in 42 minutes
KP: +13 in 21 minutes
Jrue: +20 in 35 minutes

So, it terms of impact, winning, etc., it went:  Hauser (most important) --> KP --> Jrue --> Tatum?

Those are the numbers, they don't lie?

[Moranis]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

Hauser: +17 in 16 minutes
Tatum: +19 in 42 minutes
KP: +13 in 21 minutes
Jrue: +20 in 35 minutes

So, it terms of impact, winning, etc., it went:  Hauser (most important) --> KP --> Jrue --> Tatum?

Those are the numbers, they don't lie?

bench players in small minutes aren't the same as starters. Jrue was however very important to winning that game as he had been all playoffs.  He has been the most impactful player on the team to winning during the playoffs.  He doesn't have the stats so he won't win any awards for it, but his impact has been immense.

[Roy H.]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

Hauser: +17 in 16 minutes
Tatum: +19 in 42 minutes
KP: +13 in 21 minutes
Jrue: +20 in 35 minutes

So, it terms of impact, winning, etc., it went:  Hauser (most important) --> KP --> Jrue --> Tatum?

Those are the numbers, they don't lie?

bench players in small minutes aren't the same as starters. Jrue was however very important to winning that game as he had been all playoffs.  He has been the most impactful player on the team to winning during the playoffs.  He doesn't have the stats so he won't win any awards for it, but his impact has been immense.

Why wouldn't a bench player in 20 minutes count?  He's still on the court.  Do bench players not contribute to winning?

I just want to know the rules of the game.

[Moranis]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

Hauser: +17 in 16 minutes
Tatum: +19 in 42 minutes
KP: +13 in 21 minutes
Jrue: +20 in 35 minutes

So, it terms of impact, winning, etc., it went:  Hauser (most important) --> KP --> Jrue --> Tatum?

Those are the numbers, they don't lie?

bench players in small minutes aren't the same as starters. Jrue was however very important to winning that game as he had been all playoffs.  He has been the most impactful player on the team to winning during the playoffs.  He doesn't have the stats so he won't win any awards for it, but his impact has been immense.

Why wouldn't a bench player in 20 minutes count?  He's still on the court.  Do bench players not contribute to winning?

I just want to know the rules of the game.

because they don't drive the numbers.. they are along for the ride. Hauser though is an excellent fit next to Tatum, especailly when he hits his shots as he did yesterday.

[GreenEnvy]

KP keeps it up, he can become a cool trivia question.

"What player won Finals MVP before ever playing a 2nd Round or Conference Finals game."

That would be pretty wild when you think about it.

[keevsnick]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

If anything it just shows a really small sample of Tatumless time because he played so many minutes.  You also need to take into account who was on the floor/bench during those minutes for Dallas.

full playoffs on/off differential per 100 possessions

Brown -11.4

How about playoffs last year

Brown -7.1

Or year before

Brown -1.5

Or maybe 2020

Brown -4.7

Or 2019

Brown -16.3

Or 2018

Brown -0.1

What about that rookie year, hey a positive as a bench player

Brown +1.3

Dude, it just doesn't matter. If you watch the games, he's impactful. I don't know why the on/off numbers are weird with him, but the numbers are just wrong. They should never, ever be the end all be all of basketball analysis.

[Redz]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

+12 in 37 minutes is worse than +6 in 11 minutes.  Those are the numbers, they don't lie.

Hauser: +17 in 16 minutes
Tatum: +19 in 42 minutes
KP: +13 in 21 minutes
Jrue: +20 in 35 minutes

So, it terms of impact, winning, etc., it went:  Hauser (most important) --> KP --> Jrue --> Tatum?

Those are the numbers, they don't lie?

bench players in small minutes aren't the same as starters. Jrue was however very important to winning that game as he had been all playoffs.  He has been the most impactful player on the team to winning during the playoffs.  He doesn't have the stats so he won't win any awards for it, but his impact has been immense.

Why wouldn't a bench player in 20 minutes count?  He's still on the court.  Do bench players not contribute to winning?

I just want to know the rules of the game.

because they don't drive the numbers.. they are along for the ride. Hauser though is an excellent fit next to Tatum, especailly when he hits his shots as he did yesterday.

But somehow the 6 minutes that Tatum is off the court does?

[Roy H.]

I voted Tatum and Porzingis. Tatum was making all of the right plays early on, including continually feeding Zinger in that 1st quarter.  Boston won the game in the first 12 minutes and those 2 set the tone and the pace.

Tatum was +19 in 42 minutes and the team was -1 in the 6 minutes he was on the bench. Jrue was +20 in his 35 minutes and Zinger was +13 in his 20 minutes.  Those 3 are the reason Boston won and I felt Tatum and Zinger were better than Jrue in the 1st quarter, which is why I just went with those 2 and didn't include Jrue.  Brown continues to play well, but the team was again better when he was on the bench. He just doesn't impact the result.

When you say they were better with him on the bench in this game what do you mean? He was a +12 basically the same as Porzingis. I agree Tatum is the better player and impacts winning more, but tough to say Brown didn’t impact the team positively when they were a +12 when he was out there. You are basically punishing him for being on the same team as Tatum.

It’s an argument he won’t let go of. He watches Brown score, defend, block shots and still doesn’t see his impact.  3 steals and 3 blocks in this one.  The Doncic steal, the Kyrie block, and his third quarter 3 were all huge.  But the team was -1 in the 6 minutes Tatum was on the bench so therefore Brown doesn’t impact winning.

If anything it just shows a really small sample of Tatumless time because he played so many minutes.  You also need to take into account who was on the floor/bench during those minutes for Dallas.

full playoffs on/off differential per 100 possessions

Brown -11.4

How about playoffs last year

Brown -7.1

Or year before

Brown -1.5

Or maybe 2020

Brown -4.7

Or 2019

Brown -16.3

Or 2018

Brown -0.1

What about that rookie year, hey a positive as a bench player

Brown +1.3

Clearly the overall trend is that Brown has gotten worse just about every year.