How do you rank Tatum against other Celtics legends?

[Who]

The only legend I can think of for the Lakers that did not win a title is Elgin Baylor. 8 NBA Finals. 10 times All-NBA.

A revolutionary style of play. Did things that no player had ever done before. The greatest forward in league history to that point. Like 35ppg almost 20rpg as a 6-5 SF. Could handle and pass the ball like a guard. Dominate the boards like a big. One of the greatest scorers ever. What? 2nd or 3rd All-Time when he retired in scoring. Something like that. Aerial creativity and mid-air artistry never seen before that would set the foundation for future evolutionaries like C Hawkins, Dr J, David Thompson, MJ, Vince Carter.

That is what it takes to be a legend at a team like LAL or BOS without winning a title.

[Who]

Go back to the Bulls and D-Rose. Who are his competitors historically at PG for Chicago? Norm Van Lier? Kirk Hinrich? Those two guys are probably the next best PGs in Chicago Bulls history.

It is easy to make yourself a legend against that competition.

Who are Tatum's main competitiors at SF? Larry Bird. John Havlicek. Paul Pierce. Bird a top ten if not top 5 player All-Time. Hondo regularly a top 30 player All-Time. Pierce sometimes in sometimes just ouside top 10 SF of All-Time (so borderline top 50 all-time). And all 3 of them won NBA titles here in Boston. 

The two situations just doesn't compare. They do not compare in terms of individual talent. They do not compare in terms of winning. Being Chicago only had one/two winning group based around MJ & Pip for their entire history.

Tatum has much more to live up to in order to become a legend than other stars do because he plays for a legendary team. The Celtics (an the Lakers) are a class apart from the rest of the league.

[Vermont Green]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

That is a bit harsh.  I get we all want championships but Tatum is 2 time, 1st team all-NBA in an era where there are more stars than ever:

Celtics 1st Team All-NBA List:
Bob Cousy (10), Larry Bird (9), John Havlicek (4), Bill Sharman (4), Ed Macauley (3), Bill Russell (3), Jayson Tatum (2), Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Ed Sadowski.

Paul Pierce has 1 championship but was never 1st team all-NBA.  Cowens, if I have this right, won an MVP (1973) but not a 1st team all-NBA.

Yes, harsh. This is Boston. The place of Titans.

Individual accolades do not compare to titles. Tatum can line up behind all the winners next to the other guys who won nothing in their Celtics career.


You want to be a legend here, you gotta win.

So Ted Williams is not a legend then?  I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.  Championships are part of "legend-dom".  I think you are taking it a bit too far though.

Not my sport. Celtics wise = no titles, not a legend.

Pierce wouldn't be up there next to those other legends if he didn't win one late in his career. That is the standard you have live up to be a Celtics legend.

Basketball legends who haven't won a title:

Elgin Baylor
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
George Gervin
Pete Maravich

I would be happy if Tatum produces an Elgin Baylor level career.  He is on track for that.  A title or several would cement the legend status, for sure, but  I don't see it as that binary.  I know many do.  Elgin Baylor is not just a Lakers legend, he is an NBA legend.  I think Tatum will be too, in time, even if he doesn't win a title (which I think he will).

[Donoghus]

Legend is an arbitrary & subjective term.

That being said, Who does raise a good point, the pantheons of these organizations are not all created equal.  In an organization flush with championships, the threshold to be in that team's upper echelon of greats has a much higher bar than an organization like the Hornets or Grizzlies.  Winning a championship certainly breaks that glass ceiling in a place like Boston or LA.   

[footey]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

[Roy H.]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

Tatum has the highest scoring season in team history, and he's made it to the Finals once.  If he continues at that pace with multiple 30 ppg seasons, 1sr Team All-NBA, repeated deep playoff runs that don't lead to a title, etc., is there no discussion to be had?

He'll never surpass Larry or Russell, but can people argue "Tatum was better than Pierce or Hondo" if he doesn't get a ring?

Is it a better player versus better legacy debate?

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

Tatum has the highest scoring season in team history, and he's made it to the Finals once.  If he continues at that pace with multiple 30 ppg seasons, 1sr Team All-NBA, repeated deep playoff runs that don't lead to a title, etc., is there no discussion to be had?

He'll never surpass Larry or Russell, but can people argue "Tatum was better than Pierce or Hondo" if he doesn't get a ring?

Is it a better player versus better legacy debate?

One caveat: He's playing in a 3pt-heavy era, which definitely boosts his scoring (and that of most players).

[Moranis]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

so there are only 4 legends, Russell, Cowens, Bird, and Garnett?

[Roy H.]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

so there are only 4 legends, Russell, Cowens, Bird, and Garnett?

How'd you get there?  Those are the four who have "led" the team to a title?

[SHAQATTACK]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

so there are only 4 legends, Russell, Cowens, Bird, and Garnett?

Yup!  All day !

[tenn_smoothie]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

so there are only 4 legends, Russell, Cowens, Bird, and Garnett?

My four Generals !!!!

[Moranis]

This discussion should not be had until Tatum has led his team to at least one championship.  Legends start in Boston usually with multiple championships.

so there are only 4 legends, Russell, Cowens, Bird, and Garnett?

How'd you get there?  Those are the four who have "led" the team to a title?

Yep.

[trickybilly]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

Agreed. Legendary fundamentally entails a chip.

If we are talking "how good he is", that's a different conversation. But until we win, he cannot go anywhere near those other dudes.

Maybe more interesting is where Jaylen would be in the "how good is he" rank.

[greg683x]

Tatum badly needs a playoff run this year where he’s taking over games that matter and putting this team on his shoulders when they need him too. 

He’s a better player than Pierce, but this is in my mind is the last remaining thing that Pierce did that Tatum can’t seem to accomplish.  It’s a big one, and I can’t put Tatum above Pierce until he does it.

[Moranis]

Tatum badly needs a playoff run this year where he’s taking over games that matter and putting this team on his shoulders when they need him too. 

He’s a better player than Pierce, but this is in my mind is the last remaining thing that Pierce did that Tatum can’t seem to accomplish.  It’s a big one, and I can’t put Tatum above Pierce until he does it.

is Tatum playing with a former MVP still in his prime? Tatum has been the best player on a team that went further than any team Pierce was on as the best player.  And he has matched Pierce's farthest level several times.  Giving Pierce credit for playing on a team with KG and Allen while denigrating Tatum for not doing so, seems strange to me.