Celtics (15-4) at Pacers (10-8) Game #20 12/4/23

[scaryjerry]

The issue was they failed in a do or die game in the same way they have failed in the past. The IST is a dry run for the playoffs. They still have the same weaknesses they had the previous years. Bad 3rd quarters. Bad offense. Bad shooting.

As I said the game result is frustrating because we were right there, and we could have (and should have) won if the team made some smarter calls at the end of the game.   But outside of that, losing a hard fought game against a playoff calibre team while missing a top 3 player is far from an embarrassment.

That's the problem though and has been for the duration of the Tatum/Brown era - playing dumb at the end of close games.

The Celtics have been to the ECF in what - 4 or thee last 5 years? Something like that? How many other teams in the league can claim that level of consistent success?

Would you rather be a Phily fan watching Embiid getting knocked out every year in the second round?

Obviously I would love to see the Celtics go a step further, make it to the NBA finals a second time, and preferably win a title.  But pretty much every year we have come out as a top 4 team in the league come playoff time.  Every year that we have been knocked out it's been by the team who either won the championship or at the very least a team that played in the finals. 

And it's been the Jays that we criticise so much that have been carrying us to that success for most of that time.  They have done better and gotten further then most of the stars in this league have. 

As far as fans go things might not be perfect, I think we could be doing a hell of a lot worse.

Them making it deep in the playoffs every year as favorites and coming up short is the exact problem but I’m happy for you enjoying those conference finals participation trophies

[tenn_smoothie]

The issue was they failed in a do or die game in the same way they have failed in the past. The IST is a dry run for the playoffs. They still have the same weaknesses they had the previous years. Bad 3rd quarters. Bad offense. Bad shooting.

As I said the game result is frustrating because we were right there, and we could have (and should have) won if the team made some smarter calls at the end of the game.   But outside of that, losing a hard fought game against a playoff calibre team while missing a top 3 player is far from an embarrassment.

That's the problem though and has been for the duration of the Tatum/Brown era - playing dumb at the end of close games.

The Celtics have been to the ECF in what - 4 or thee last 5 years? Something like that? How many other teams in the league can claim that level of consistent success?

Would you rather be a Phily fan watching Embiid getting knocked out every year in the second round?

Obviously I would love to see the Celtics go a step further, make it to the NBA finals a second time, and preferably win a title.  But pretty much every year we have come out as a top 4 team in the league come playoff time, every year that we have been knocked out it's been by the team who either won the championhip or at the very least played in the finals.  As far as fans go, we could be doing a hell of a lot worse.

Not good enough. This team is long overdue for a title and Tatum/Brown should be a multiple title era.
Talent and ability have not been the problem. Bad luck has hurt us for sure.
Management has been feast or famine with their decisions since the Garnett teams.
Some genius and some stupid beyond explanation.
But our biggest problem has been mental, players and coaches.

[Muzzy66]

The issue was they failed in a do or die game in the same way they have failed in the past. The IST is a dry run for the playoffs. They still have the same weaknesses they had the previous years. Bad 3rd quarters. Bad offense. Bad shooting.

As I said the game result is frustrating because we were right there, and we could have (and should have) won if the team made some smarter calls at the end of the game.   But outside of that, losing a hard fought game against a playoff calibre team while missing a top 3 player is far from an embarrassment.

That's the problem though and has been for the duration of the Tatum/Brown era - playing dumb at the end of close games.

But people say this as if we are the only team in the league that makes these mistakes.  We aren't.  That's why the Celtics have had a top record all season long - you don't achieve that by constantly playing worse at the end of games then everybody else in the league.

For every game we've lost because we choked at the end, there have been 2+ games that we won because we played well at the end of the game and the other team didn't. 

All teams have games that they lose because of missed shots, untimely turnovers or bad decision making.  If there were statistics out there which measure how many botched possessions each team has in the last 5 minutes of a game, I expect the Celtics would actually be near the bottom of the list.

Every single thing that people here criticise the Celics for are things that fans of other teams on other forums are out there criticising their own team of doing too.  No team executes perfectly every game, especially when missing one of their best players.

Congrats on having a “top record all season” 20 games in. There’s 62 regular season games to go and it’s championship or bust.

Well, 20 games in all the progression that's happened this season.  So having the "top record all season" 20 games in is the absolute best position this team could be in 20 games in. 

Unless you have a magic crystal ball that can see beyond tomorrow which shows the Celtics completely falling apart for the remaining 62 games of the season, there isn't really THAT much to complain about at this point.

This site is clearly filled with a LOT of "glass half full" individuals.  No matter how good things get, they always find things to complain about.  If we were 20-0 and won every game by 20+ you would probably complain that things are bad because we've yet to be challenged by anybody and once the playoffs come around we will get destroyed.  There is no "winning" with the people here.

[Mahk E Mahk]

who’s the dawg on this team? who’s playing the garnett role, holding teammates accountable and kicking ass when someone is coasting? the jays have more than proved they’re not that guy, but they’ve also proved they need a guy like that on the roster. until brad finds that guy, it’s gonna be groundhog day for c’s fans: plenty of playoff action but no chip.

[scaryjerry]

The issue was they failed in a do or die game in the same way they have failed in the past. The IST is a dry run for the playoffs. They still have the same weaknesses they had the previous years. Bad 3rd quarters. Bad offense. Bad shooting.

As I said the game result is frustrating because we were right there, and we could have (and should have) won if the team made some smarter calls at the end of the game.   But outside of that, losing a hard fought game against a playoff calibre team while missing a top 3 player is far from an embarrassment.

That's the problem though and has been for the duration of the Tatum/Brown era - playing dumb at the end of close games.

The Celtics have been to the ECF in what - 4 or thee last 5 years? Something like that? How many other teams in the league can claim that level of consistent success?

Would you rather be a Phily fan watching Embiid getting knocked out every year in the second round?

Obviously I would love to see the Celtics go a step further, make it to the NBA finals a second time, and preferably win a title.  But pretty much every year we have come out as a top 4 team in the league come playoff time, every year that we have been knocked out it's been by the team who either won the championhip or at the very least played in the finals.  As far as fans go, we could be doing a hell of a lot worse.

Not good enough. This team is long overdue for a title and Tatum/Brown should be a multiple title era.
Talent and ability have not been the problem. Bad luck has hurt us for sure.
Management has been feast or famine with their decisions since the Garnett teams.
Some genius and some stupid beyond explanation.
But our biggest problem has been mental, players and coaches.

Yup, we were 5 minutes away from going up 3-1 against the warriors in the finals 2 years ago and proceeded to choke and not win another game that series and he’s celebrating that. Lol. We are in championship or bust territory with this team and not getting at least 1 would be a devastating waste. Congrats on 15-5 though.

[Muzzy66]

The issue was they failed in a do or die game in the same way they have failed in the past. The IST is a dry run for the playoffs. They still have the same weaknesses they had the previous years. Bad 3rd quarters. Bad offense. Bad shooting.

As I said the game result is frustrating because we were right there, and we could have (and should have) won if the team made some smarter calls at the end of the game.   But outside of that, losing a hard fought game against a playoff calibre team while missing a top 3 player is far from an embarrassment.

That's the problem though and has been for the duration of the Tatum/Brown era - playing dumb at the end of close games.

The Celtics have been to the ECF in what - 4 or thee last 5 years? Something like that? How many other teams in the league can claim that level of consistent success?

Would you rather be a Phily fan watching Embiid getting knocked out every year in the second round?

Obviously I would love to see the Celtics go a step further, make it to the NBA finals a second time, and preferably win a title.  But pretty much every year we have come out as a top 4 team in the league come playoff time, every year that we have been knocked out it's been by the team who either won the championhip or at the very least played in the finals.  As far as fans go, we could be doing a hell of a lot worse.

Not good enough. This team is long overdue for a title and Tatum/Brown should be a multiple title era.
Talent and ability have not been the problem. Bad luck has hurt us for sure.
Management has been feast or famine with their decisions since the Garnett teams.
Some genius and some stupid beyond explanation.
But our biggest problem has been mental, players and coaches.

So you're saying as long as we have Tatum/Brown together, anything less than two championships is falling short?   

Lebron, Wade and Bosh combined on the same team dead in the middle of their primes and they only came out of it with two championships. And Lebron and Wade are arguably both top 3 all-time players at their positions.

Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo spent 5-6 years together and combined for 16 All-Star appearances between them over that stretch, and all they managed is one championship.

Kawhi (a proven winner and multi-time finals MVP) and Paul George have spent 5 years together on the LA Clippers.  They haven't won a single title and only made the conference finals once. 

Hell, the Lakers in 2004 had prime Shaq, prime Kobe, ageing Payton and ageing Karl Malone and they almost got swept (4-1) in the finals.   

Tatum and Brown are not as impressive a duo as Lebron and Wade, or Pierce and Garnett, or Kobe and Shaq.  MAYBE you could argue that they are on the level as Kawhi and Paul George.  So suggesting that they are a disappointment if they bring anything less than multiple championships seems a bit unreasonable. 

I think you underestimate how difficult winning a championship is, let alone multiple championships. 

And yeah, call me crazy, but losing in 6 games to a Warriors team that had won 3 championships in the prior 5 years (and set an NBA all-time record of 73 wins in 2015-16 season) is not what I would consider an embarrassment.

In fact, if there is any one team over the past decade that you could lose to in an NBA finals and not hang your head over it, it would be the Steph/Klay Warriors.  A team that will go down in history as one of the top 3 or 4 dynasties in NBA history.

Especially when you consider that Tatum was 23, Brown was 24, and that was effectively the first year where the Jays were well and truly given the reins of the team and forced to take over and to learn how to be leaders. 

And no, getting to the ECF / NBA Finals is not something I would consider worthy of celebration...but it is something I consider worthy of respect.  If we consider anything less than a title to be considered as a horrible failure, then we are just one of 29 teams who suffered horrible failures in each of the past 10 years. 

[tenn_smoothie]

Woahh Muzzy.

Yes, I do think at least 2 titles from Tatum/Brown is quite reasonable to expect and their success reaching the ECF and the Finals demonstrates this.
You're right, Garnett and Pierce should have had at least one more title if not two more, but bad luck (KG knee injury), a very suspicious 4th quarter in a game 7 (Lakers) and a foolish trade (Perk) prevented that. Losing to the Warriors was not an embarrassment, it was bad offensive coaching by Udoka. My history as a Celtics fan goes back to 1969, so my perspective may be different than younger CS members. I see a team that has failed due to completely fixable issues. But we don't, to date, seem to have the management and coaching wisdom or the courage to make the needed changes to get this core group to #18. Red Auerbach, as GM, would not have sat on his hands watching us fail year after year. He saw what a team's weaknesses were, players and coaches, and made the tough decisions to get what was needed to win championships.

[Muzzy66]

Woahh Muzzy.

Yes, I do think at least 2 titles from Tatum/Brown is quite reasonable to expect and their success reaching the ECF and the Finals demonstrates this.
You're right, Garnett and Pierce should have had at least one more title if not two more, but bad luck (KG knee injury), a very suspicious 4th quarter in a game 7 (Lakers) and a foolish trade (Perk) prevented that. Losing to the Warriors was not an embarrassment, it was bad offensive coaching by Udoka. My history as a Celtics fan goes back to 1969, so my perspective may be different than younger CS members. I see a team that has failed due to completely fixable issues. But we don't, to date, seem to have the management and coaching wisdom or the courage to make the needed changes to get this core group to #18. Red Auerbach, as GM, would not have sat on his hands watching us fail year after year. He saw what a team needed, players and coaches and made the tough decisions to get the team what was needed to win championships.

Yeah but those teams also had Larry Bird, who is one of the top 10 greatest players in NBA history. 

In fact if I think of the teams over the past 30-40 years who have won multiple championships, one thing most of those teams have in common is at least one top-10 (or at least top-20) all time player. 

* Celtics (Bird)
* Lakers (Magic and Kareem)
* Bulls (Jordan)
* Spurs (Duncan)
* Lakers (Kobe and Shaq)
* Miami (Lebron)
* Rockets (Hakeem)
* Warriors (Curry)

So as much as we can give some credit to Red for building great rosters, we probably should also acknowledge that those Celtics teams would not have had half the success they did if not for a certain legend named Larry being there to carry them in times of need.

Looking at past seasons though, we had some pretty good teams, but we also have had a lot of injuries to key players during deep playoff runs.  Maybe when you have a prime Kobe or prime Bird you can overcome those scenarios, but when you're relying on a guy who isn't a top-20 all time player, who is only 23/24 year old, to be your best player and leader...I don't feel like we can really be THAT upset that those teams came up short.

This is probably the first season where I really feel that the team is starting to run low on excuses.  Tatum (25) is now old enough that he's nearly (not quite, but almost) in the prime of his career.  JB pretty much is in his prime right now.  They have tonnes of very good players around them - in fact I would go so far as to say that they have the clear most talented roster in the NBA.   I think the guys deserve maybe half a season or so to build up chemistry and get used to playing with each other, but once we get to post All-Star period this team really should be playing like a championship team.

I guess the question is though...are we already playing like a championship team?  Are there any teams in the league right now that look like they could beat Boston in a 7 game series?  Only team I thin think of off the top of my head would be the Timberwolves, because they seem to match up especially well against us (since Gobert can neutralise Porzingis, Edwards can stick with Tatum, KAT can stick with Brown, etc.  But outside of the Wolves I dont see any other team in the league this year who I think could beat the Celtics over 7 games.

[trickybilly]

who’s the dawg on this team? who’s playing the garnett role, holding teammates accountable and kicking ass when someone is coasting? the jays have more than proved they’re not that guy, but they’ve also proved they need a guy like that on the roster. until brad finds that guy, it’s gonna be groundhog day for c’s fans: plenty of playoff action but no chip.

I tend to agree with this. Jaylen and Jayson are both very softly spoken.

It's gonna have to be Jrue or Kristaps...

[obnoxiousmime]

Woahh Muzzy.

Yes, I do think at least 2 titles from Tatum/Brown is quite reasonable to expect and their success reaching the ECF and the Finals demonstrates this.
You're right, Garnett and Pierce should have had at least one more title if not two more, but bad luck (KG knee injury), a very suspicious 4th quarter in a game 7 (Lakers) and a foolish trade (Perk) prevented that. Losing to the Warriors was not an embarrassment, it was bad offensive coaching by Udoka. My history as a Celtics fan goes back to 1969, so my perspective may be different than younger CS members. I see a team that has failed due to completely fixable issues. But we don't, to date, seem to have the management and coaching wisdom or the courage to make the needed changes to get this core group to #18. Red Auerbach, as GM, would not have sat on his hands watching us fail year after year. He saw what a team needed, players and coaches and made the tough decisions to get the team what was needed to win championships.

It's extremely difficult and rare to win a title if you don't have an MVP on your team.

[scaryjerry]

Woahh Muzzy.

Yes, I do think at least 2 titles from Tatum/Brown is quite reasonable to expect and their success reaching the ECF and the Finals demonstrates this.
You're right, Garnett and Pierce should have had at least one more title if not two more, but bad luck (KG knee injury), a very suspicious 4th quarter in a game 7 (Lakers) and a foolish trade (Perk) prevented that. Losing to the Warriors was not an embarrassment, it was bad offensive coaching by Udoka. My history as a Celtics fan goes back to 1969, so my perspective may be different than younger CS members. I see a team that has failed due to completely fixable issues. But we don't, to date, seem to have the management and coaching wisdom or the courage to make the needed changes to get this core group to #18. Red Auerbach, as GM, would not have sat on his hands watching us fail year after year. He saw what a team needed, players and coaches and made the tough decisions to get the team what was needed to win championships.

Yeah but those teams also had Larry Bird, who is one of the top 10 greatest players in NBA history. 

In fact if I think of the teams over the past 30-40 years who have won multiple championships, one thing most of those teams have in common is at least one top-10 (or at least top-20) all time player. 

* Celtics (Bird)
* Lakers (Magic and Kareem)
* Bulls (Jordan)
* Spurs (Duncan)
* Lakers (Kobe and Shaq)
* Miami (Lebron)
* Rockets (Hakeem)
* Warriors (Curry)

So as much as we can give some credit to Red for building great rosters, we probably should also acknowledge that those Celtics teams would not have had half the success they did if not for a certain legend named Larry being there to carry them in times of need.

Looking at past seasons though, we had some pretty good teams, but we also have had a lot of injuries to key players during deep playoff runs.  Maybe when you have a prime Kobe or prime Bird you can overcome those scenarios, but when you're relying on a guy who isn't a top-20 all time player, who is only 23/24 year old, to be your best player and leader...I don't feel like we can really be THAT upset that those teams came up short.

This is probably the first season where I really feel that the team is starting to run low on excuses.  Tatum (25) is now old enough that he's nearly (not quite, but almost) in the prime of his career.  JB pretty much is in his prime right now.  They have tonnes of very good players around them - in fact I would go so far as to say that they have the clear most talented roster in the NBA.   I think the guys deserve maybe half a season or so to build up chemistry and get used to playing with each other, but once we get to post All-Star period this team really should be playing like a championship team.

I guess the question is though...are we already playing like a championship team?  Are there any teams in the league right now that look like they could beat Boston in a 7 game series?  Only team I thin think of off the top of my head would be the Timberwolves, because they seem to match up especially well against us (since Gobert can neutralise Porzingis, Edwards can stick with Tatum, KAT can stick with Brown, etc.  But outside of the Wolves I dont see any other team in the league this year who I think could beat the Celtics over 7 games.

Based on the Celtics play I think at least 10 teams can beat them in a 7 game series. You’re taking the first 20 games a little to literal my guy. They were 29-12 to start last season and it took them 6 to beat the hawks, a miracle 7 to beat the doc rivers/James harden Sixers and then lost to the 8th seeded heat. They’re extremely beatable

[scaryjerry]

 

[Who]

I see nobody one team in the East good enough to beat Boston in a 7 game series assuming Boston is healthy that is. Orlando too young and weak offensively. Milwaukee no depth, bad defensively and matchup badly with Boston. Maybe Philly. I see Philly as the only semi-threatening team but I don't believe they have enough for to outlast Boston in 7. Still, they have a small chance. So 1 team in the East.

In the West, Denver, Minnesota and New Orleans are possibilities. Phoenix is another wild card as we haven't seen them healthy yet. Clippers are a long shot but reluctant to write them off just yet. So up to 5 teams in the West. I'd favour Boston over all 5 of them in a series but they are good enough to have a real shot at knocking Boston off.

[cman88]

Lose a game in December on the road without KP whole having the best record in the NBA?

OMG our season over! A third of the league can beat us in a 7 game series!

Are we doing this after every loss? It's getting old

[cman88]

I see nobody one team in the East good enough to beat Boston in a 7 game series assuming Boston is healthy that is. Orlando too young and weak offensively. Milwaukee no depth, bad defensively and matchup badly with Boston. Maybe Philly. I see Philly as the only semi-threatening team but I don't believe they have enough for to outlast Boston in 7. Still, they have a small chance. So 1 team in the East.

In the West, Denver, Minnesota and New Orleans are possibilities. Phoenix is another wild card as we haven't seen them healthy yet. Clippers are a long shot but reluctant to write them off just yet. So up to 5 teams in the West. I'd favour Boston over all 5 of them in a series but they are good enough to have a real shot at knocking Boston off.

stating there are 10 teams (a third of the League) better than us is crazy.