2023 CS Historic Draft - How's My Team?

[Who]

I am watching an old Bulls game. It is against Ewing's Knicks right after Jordan dropped 69pts on Cleveland. The commentators - Rick Barry is one of them - are amazed by Jordan. The part that amazed Rick Barry the most was that Jordan had only 1 dunk in the 69pt performance.

The thing that somewhat relates to this thread is that Barry adds that MJ's 69 is the most points scored in the NBA since the 73 point effort by David Thompson. I had forgotten about that.

Only Wilt had scored more than D Thompson's 73 until Kobe had his 81. I believe D Booker broke it too a few years ago (in Boston?) with 74-76pts. I forget the number.

73 points without a three point line. He went 28-38 FGA and 17-20 FTA.

The thought of David Thompson in today's league with his explosive speed & athleticism combined with his jump-shooting, how would anyone stop him? Unguardable. Wade with a jumper minus the passing.


Update on the MJ game against NYK. It was the game directly after MJ's 69 against Cleveland. Jordan dropped 49 against New York so 118 points in two games. He also dominated the game defensively towards the end. Carried the Bulls on offense in the 2nd half when his fellow starters went ice cold and let NY back into the game. Awesome performance. 12 rebounds, 5 steals, 2 blocks along with 4 assists to go with his 49 points. 

[Moranis]

Booker only topped out at 70, which is 3rd among active players.  Lillard and Mitchell each have a 71 point game (both this past season), which is tied with Baylor and D. Robinson for 8th all time.

100 - Wilt
81 - Kobe
78 - Wilt
73 - Wilt, Wilt, Thompson
72 - Wilt
71 - Baylor, Robinson, Mitchell, Lillard
70 - Wilt, Booker

Those are the only 13 times in history a scored at least 70.

Jordan's 63 is the top playoff game and Baylor at 61 is the only other guy to hit 60 in the playoffs.  Mitchell is actually 3rd all time with 57 that he had against the Nuggets in the bubble in 2020 (he also had a 51 point game in that series).  Jordan dominates the playoff leader board in much the same say Wilt dominates the regular season one.

[Roy H.]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

[Moranis]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

[Roy H.]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

[Moranis]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

the most pure talent in the league? Come on.  I identified who they lost to.  2, maybe 3 series, they had arguably better talent than the team they lost to.  Certainly not the Blazers, Sonics, or Lakers

The Suns both years had a core of DJ, Davis, and Nance, so that favors the Nuggets talent wise and they split the two 3 game series with them.

Spurs were more talented at the top led by Gervin and Gimore (that Nuggets team was English, older Issel, and Kiki)

Jazz had Dantley, pre-injury Griffith, Eaton, so Nuggets overall more talented, but Dantley was pretty clearly the best player in that series and at 28 was in the heart of his prime (that was Issel's 2nd to last year)

The Nuggets certainly could have used a few defensive specialists, especially after Jones left the team.  That was an issue for them, but it isn't like they were losing to teams they had clearly more talent than. 

[theswitch]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

I think their best shots during that timeline were in the late 70s when Bobby was still there. Thompson, English, Kiki are all offense-oriented players. Issel was on the later years in the early 80s and wasn't a huge defender either. In 1977 they were 1st in defensive rating. In 1982 they were dead last. 1981 and 1983 basically dead last.

Maybe not Bobby entirely because they were mediocre in 1978. So I don't know the other 1977 guys as well but maybe they lost something. And then Bobby leaving and taking on guys like English and Kiki made them awful until Lever came and they started climbing again. I don't know those teams well enough to be confident in that correlation but it seems like overall the defense was just so bad without Lever or Bobby or someone else to help ground them.

[Roy H.]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

the most pure talent in the league? Come on.  I identified who they lost to.  2, maybe 3 series, they had arguably better talent than the team they lost to.  Certainly not the Blazers, Sonics, or Lakers

The Suns both years had a core of DJ, Davis, and Nance, so that favors the Nuggets talent wise and they split the two 3 game series with them.

Spurs were more talented at the top led by Gervin and Gimore (that Nuggets team was English, older Issel, and Kiki)

Jazz had Dantley, pre-injury Griffith, Eaton, so Nuggets overall more talented, but Dantley was pretty clearly the best player in that series and at 28 was in the heart of his prime (that was Issel's 2nd to last year)

The Nuggets certainly could have used a few defensive specialists, especially after Jones left the team.  That was an issue for them, but it isn't like they were losing to teams they had clearly more talent than.

What's so great about that Sonics team?  19th best offense, 3rd best defense, 6th best in Net Rating.  3rd in their division.  It's not like they were some sort of juggernaut.  Gus Williams (18.1 ppg) Fred Brown (16.6 ppg), Marvin Webster (14.0 ppg), DJ (12.7 ppg).  Denver had more wins -- and thus home court -- and had the more talented roster (one 1st team All-NBA player, one 1st team All-Defense and two All-Stars for Denver, zero, zero and zero for Seattle).

So, that makes 6 out of 8 seasons, minimally, where they had more talent than the opposing team and either lost or missed the playoffs entirely.  They were underachievers.

[Roy H.]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

I think their best shots during that timeline were in the late 70s when Bobby was still there. Thompson, English, Kiki are all offense-oriented players. Issel was on the later years in the early 80s and wasn't a huge defender either. In 1977 they were 1st in defensive rating. In 1982 they were dead last. 1981 and 1983 basically dead last.

Maybe not Bobby entirely because they were mediocre in 1978. So I don't know the other 1977 guys as well but maybe they lost something. And then Bobby leaving and taking on guys like English and Kiki made them awful until Lever came and they started climbing again. I don't know those teams well enough to be confident in that correlation but it seems like overall the defense was just so bad without Lever or Bobby or someone else to help ground them.

I see you managed to talk up two of your draftees there (), but I don't think you're wrong.  I think it's an example of one of my key arguments in these drafts:  collections of great talent don't win on their own.  They need to fit together well, and those Denver squads just didn't fit.  It's also a great example why an amazingly talented offensive guy like Kiki Vandeweghe isn't more remembered. 

[Donoghus]

Think it was a mix of a lot of things.  Doug Moe's ideology, the roster construction, Thompson's injuries & decent in drug/alcohol abuse, Issel's decline, etc.... that lead to the team generally underachieving or just plateauing as a whole.

[theswitch]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

I think their best shots during that timeline were in the late 70s when Bobby was still there. Thompson, English, Kiki are all offense-oriented players. Issel was on the later years in the early 80s and wasn't a huge defender either. In 1977 they were 1st in defensive rating. In 1982 they were dead last. 1981 and 1983 basically dead last.

Maybe not Bobby entirely because they were mediocre in 1978. So I don't know the other 1977 guys as well but maybe they lost something. And then Bobby leaving and taking on guys like English and Kiki made them awful until Lever came and they started climbing again. I don't know those teams well enough to be confident in that correlation but it seems like overall the defense was just so bad without Lever or Bobby or someone else to help ground them.

I see you managed to talk up two of your draftees there (), but I don't think you're wrong.  I think it's an example of one of my key arguments in these drafts:  collections of great talent don't win on their own.  They need to fit together well, and those Denver squads just didn't fit.  It's also a great example why an amazingly talented offensive guy like Kiki Vandeweghe isn't more remembered.

Ha, I think a little too little too late on that front but I think it's true! I also talked down one of my draftees at the same time  although his role would've been break-in-case-of-emergency offense. We'll see how the voting turns out. I may have too many glue guys and not enough toothpicks (is that a saying? you know what I mean) but my enthusiasm for Bobby Jones and Fat Lever in those roles is well-documented in this thread at this point.

[Who]

Issel was the David Lee of his era.

He was an all-offense no-defense center for the Nuggets. Playing him at center made it difficult for DEN to have competent defenses around him. Needed a lot of help on D and he didn't get it.

Issel played PF next to Artis in the ABA. It would have been interesting to see what he would've looked like at PF in the NBA.


Although I'd add that I believe Issel's offense would be even better in today's NBA than it was in the late 70s early 80s. He was the best outside jump-shooting big man in the NBA in that era. Better than McAdoo or Sikma who were both more midrange shooters (15-17 footers) whereas Issel was taking more 20 foot range jump shots. Those would all turn into 3s in today's NBA. He would not just be a good three point shooter but a high volume one.

Then add in his ability to drive the ball alongside his outside shooting and you have one of the more dangerous scoring packages in the league at center away from the basket.

[Who]

Kiki Vanderweghe was terrible for Denver. He had individual success but only one side of the floor but was terrible for them as a team. You can't play Kiki next to Alex English. English needed a PF next to him who can help on defense. He had that with Bobby Jones, George McGinnis and Calvin Natt.

Kiki was an all-offense no-defense player at SF. Nevermind at PF. He was hands down the worst defensive player & rebounder in the league at the PF position. He was a team killer at that spot despite how good of a scorer & shooter he was.

To play Kiki next to Alex English who was also a spotty defender who had length but was lacking in quickness was a killer. At least McGinnis gave them interior force, versatile defense & top notch rebounding. Natt and B Jones gave them versatile defensive combo forwards who could take the tougher assignments and handle the great physicality in the paint. Kiki could do none of those things.

Kiki was not only hands down the worst defense and worst rebounder in the league at PF. He was generally among the worst at SF as well. It is a shame because his offene was truly beautiful to watch. He helped teach Reggie Miller when Reggie was at UCLA. How to move without the ball. How to get his shot. A lot of that came from Kiki. The guy was a genius in terms of scoring. And wonderful moving without the ball.

But his lousy D & rebounding stopped him throughout his career from enjoying much team success and it was an absolute killer in DEN when they tried to play at PF next to Alex English. Awful combination together.

[Moranis]

It's interesting to me how those Denver teams always seemed to underproduce. 

Every year between 1977 and 1984, they had some combination of at least three of the following:  David Thompson, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Alex English, Kiki Vandewaghe.  They made it out of the first round once.  It wasn't until 1985 that they made it past the second round, when the only "star" left was English, accompanied by Fat Lever and Calvin Natt.

In 1977 they lost in the semis to the Walton/Lucas Blazers that went on to win the title.

In 1978, they lost in the WCF, beating the Bucks in the semis and then losing to the Sonics in the WCF.

In 79, they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round (pre-Magic, but they did have Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon with Kareem)

In 80, they traded McGinnis for English at the deadline and Thompson played 39 games, so they didn't make the playoffs.

In 81, they didn't make the playoffs.  That one is the strange one as English, Thompson, and Issel all played the season and they had Kiki for 51 games.

In 82 they lost to Phoenix in the 1st round.

In 83, they beat Phoenix in the 1st round before losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round

In 84, they lost to the Jazz.

I suppose they could have beaten Phoenix and Utah and maybe the Spurs, but I'm not sure how much they actually underproduced either.  It is apparent though that they struggled with teams that had excellent scoring wings i.e. losing 2 series to Dantley (LA and utah), the series to Gervin, and splitting with the Walter Davis Suns.

Just some clarification: the playoff structure has changed since then.  Some years when you refer to the "semis", that's the first round.  Some years the "WCF" was the second round.

In eight years of having a "big three" that included three Hall of Famers, the team managed one series win, going 15-23 in the playoffs.  They may have had the most pure talent in the league some of those years, and they have nothing to show for it.

They tried three coaches -- Larry Brown, Donny Walsh and Doug Moe -- and nobody could get them to do anything in the playoffs.  I'm wondering if it was a matter of roster construction.

the most pure talent in the league? Come on.  I identified who they lost to.  2, maybe 3 series, they had arguably better talent than the team they lost to.  Certainly not the Blazers, Sonics, or Lakers

The Suns both years had a core of DJ, Davis, and Nance, so that favors the Nuggets talent wise and they split the two 3 game series with them.

Spurs were more talented at the top led by Gervin and Gimore (that Nuggets team was English, older Issel, and Kiki)

Jazz had Dantley, pre-injury Griffith, Eaton, so Nuggets overall more talented, but Dantley was pretty clearly the best player in that series and at 28 was in the heart of his prime (that was Issel's 2nd to last year)

The Nuggets certainly could have used a few defensive specialists, especially after Jones left the team.  That was an issue for them, but it isn't like they were losing to teams they had clearly more talent than.

What's so great about that Sonics team?  19th best offense, 3rd best defense, 6th best in Net Rating.  3rd in their division.  It's not like they were some sort of juggernaut.  Gus Williams (18.1 ppg) Fred Brown (16.6 ppg), Marvin Webster (14.0 ppg), DJ (12.7 ppg).  Denver had more wins -- and thus home court -- and had the more talented roster (one 1st team All-NBA player, one 1st team All-Defense and two All-Stars for Denver, zero, zero and zero for Seattle).

So, that makes 6 out of 8 seasons, minimally, where they had more talent than the opposing team and either lost or missed the playoffs entirely.  They were underachievers.

The Sonics were 5-17 with Hopkins coaching to start the year.  They were 42-18 once they went to Wilkens and the next year they were the best defensive team in the league and won the title.  In 78, they had  DJ, Sikma, Brown, and Williams (along woth vets like Silas and Johnson).  That team has more talent than the Nuggets and they were certainly better coached.

[gouki88]

Waiting on wdleehi (Utah) to submit his ballot, but worth noting that he's mentioned being quite busy offline a couple of times. Given the voting is skewed without his submission, I have no issue waiting

That being said, I will tease that regardless of Utah's ballot we have an outright winner! Some of the voting divergence is really interesting though