The unspoken "real" issue with these celtics...

[Moranis]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level. 

[gouki88]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level.

Harden's TS% if often very juicy because of his foul drawing, but his 3PT shooting was really good last season and his turnovers were down ~25%.

[Moranis]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level.

Harden's TS% if often very juicy because of his foul drawing, but his 3PT shooting was really good last season and his turnovers were down ~25%.

I think people have the perception of him that he still plays like Houston Harden but is worse.  He isn't that guy, but also doesn't try to be.  He is a shot creator now.  Outside of Jokic and maybe Lebron, I think he is the best in the sport at that.  He isn't a defender and the attitude can be prickly, but he is still a clear top 20 player in my view because of his elite creation and efficiency.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level.

Harden's TS% if often very juicy because of his foul drawing, but his 3PT shooting was really good last season and his turnovers were down ~25%.

I think people have the perception of him that he still plays like Houston Harden but is worse.  He isn't that guy, but also doesn't try to be.  He is a shot creator now.  Outside of Jokic and maybe Lebron, I think he is the best in the sport at that.  He isn't a defender and the attitude can be prickly, but he is still a clear top 20 player in my view because of his elite creation and efficiency.

James Harden's elite passing and distribution has become underrated. One of the best in the league there.

His regular season efficiency is still very good, but his playoff efficiency fell off the cliff again this year. 39% FG shooting with only 5 FTA. Most players take a hit with their efficiency in the playoffs, but Harden's normally falls off a cliff, which is a big reason his teams (with their offenses built around him) can't make deep runs.

[tenn_smoothie]

A lot of players have come and gone over the last few years, with essentially the exception of Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Yet, the same issues seem to persist. This is one of the reasons why I thought either Marcus or Jaylen needed to be traded this off season. The personalities of your best players can effect the rest of the team. With that in mind, Jayson and Jaylen need to flip a switch in two key areas.

1. No matter how talented their opponent is, they are never entitled to winning on any night. This team seems to constantly blow leads or not take teams seriously.

2. I do believe Jayson and Jaylen want to win. However, what's holding them back is not hating to lose. They need to hate losing more than wanting to win.

Excellent point. Another way to say it is that the J's want to win, but don't need to win the way Cowens, Garnett, Bird and Russell did.

What good did Garnett’s “need to win” do him prior to joining Boston?

Huh ?  Non-sequitur Gouk.
Garnett didn't have enough talent around him in Minny. He did in Boston.

Tatum and Brown do have enough talent on this team to have already won a title.
That's the point the OP was making - thus meaning something else is the reason for the playoff failures.

[gouki88]

A lot of players have come and gone over the last few years, with essentially the exception of Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Yet, the same issues seem to persist. This is one of the reasons why I thought either Marcus or Jaylen needed to be traded this off season. The personalities of your best players can effect the rest of the team. With that in mind, Jayson and Jaylen need to flip a switch in two key areas.

1. No matter how talented their opponent is, they are never entitled to winning on any night. This team seems to constantly blow leads or not take teams seriously.

2. I do believe Jayson and Jaylen want to win. However, what's holding them back is not hating to lose. They need to hate losing more than wanting to win.

Excellent point. Another way to say it is that the J's want to win, but don't need to win the way Cowens, Garnett, Bird and Russell did.

What good did Garnett’s “need to win” do him prior to joining Boston?

Huh ?  Non-sequitur Gouk.
Garnett didn't have enough talent around him in Minny. He did in Boston.

Tatum and Brown do have enough talent on this team to have already won a title.
That's the point the OP was making - thus meaning something else is the reason for the playoff failures.

It‘s just that your distinction is meaningless. The reality is that none of us know how much player X “needed” to win vs player Y merely “wanting” to

[Kernewek]

Agreed - unless you’re in the locker room, it’s just PR

[cman88]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level.

Harden's TS% if often very juicy because of his foul drawing, but his 3PT shooting was really good last season and his turnovers were down ~25%.

I think people have the perception of him that he still plays like Houston Harden but is worse.  He isn't that guy, but also doesn't try to be.  He is a shot creator now.  Outside of Jokic and maybe Lebron, I think he is the best in the sport at that.  He isn't a defender and the attitude can be prickly, but he is still a clear top 20 player in my view because of his elite creation and efficiency.

Apparently he doesn't want to be an elite shot creator though. At least that's why he got Doc fired. (And then requested a trade after). He still thinks he's Houston harden mentally. Or at least wants to be.

Except for 2 throwback games against the Celtics he was pretty trash in the playoffs this year. Played poor in the first round and like I said had 2 throwback games and went back to being non-existent the rest.

[Moranis]

Harden just led the league in apg and was 2nd the year before.  It is hard to think of him as a distributor instead of scorer, but that is what he is now and he is an elite level creator.  That is why he is on many rankings, and still should be, a top 20 player.

Assists are a misleading stat.  Is it really good to have one guy dribble around for 20 seconds looking to "create", looking for the perfect pass?  I don't think it is.  Harden has dropped off a lot.  He is not the player he used to be, at least not consistently.  He had the playoff game (Game 1 vs Boston) where he carried them but then was inconsistent the rest of the way.  That is Harden now.  There is still a star player in him, but you hardly see it anymore.  I think he is physically worn down and mentally not consistently motivated.

I have thought for the last two seasons that Harden would be better than he was and that PHI was going to be better than they ended up being.  I am going to make that mistake 3 times.

He isn't a consistent scorer but he still generates a lot of good shots for himself and teammates.  You can't average nearly 11 apg and be bad at it.  He is basically a 20/10 player with a TS% of over 60.  He isn't the mega scorer, but he is efficient and distributes.  No one else in the league gets you all 3 of those things i.e. 20 ppg, 10apg on over 60% TS.  I mean Brown's career best TS% is 58.6 (and that was 3 seasons ago).  Heck Harden's 60.7 last year was actually slightly lower than his career average of 60.9.

Harden is ball dominant, but he there have been very players like him in the history of the sport and he is still producing at a very high level.

Harden's TS% if often very juicy because of his foul drawing, but his 3PT shooting was really good last season and his turnovers were down ~25%.

I think people have the perception of him that he still plays like Houston Harden but is worse.  He isn't that guy, but also doesn't try to be.  He is a shot creator now.  Outside of Jokic and maybe Lebron, I think he is the best in the sport at that.  He isn't a defender and the attitude can be prickly, but he is still a clear top 20 player in my view because of his elite creation and efficiency.

Apparently he doesn't want to be an elite shot creator though. At least that's why he got Doc fired. (And then requested a trade after). He still thinks he's Houston harden mentally. Or at least wants to be.

Except for 2 throwback games against the Celtics he was pretty trash in the playoffs this year. Played poor in the first round and like I said had 2 throwback games and went back to being non-existent the rest.

He took on the role in Brooklyn without issue.  Doc got Doc fired but by being a bad coach.

[celticsclay]

I will be absolutely shocked if harden or butler makes an all nba team this year. Will give out Tommy points to whoever if they do. If harden was as good as people are making him out to be the 76ers would have been in the finals the last two years. Embid, Harris and maxey, Tucker, melton is not a trash supporting cast

[gouki88]

I will be absolutely shocked if harden or butler makes an all nba team this year. Will give out Tommy points to whoever if they do. If harden was as good as people are making him out to be the 76ers would have been in the finals the last two years. Embid, Harris and maxey, Tucker, melton is not a trash supporting cast

I would be too. Both will probably get injured (unlike my list suggests), and Butler often coasts before playoffs. I will be intrigued to see how Philly operate without Doc though

[tenn_smoothie]

A lot of players have come and gone over the last few years, with essentially the exception of Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Yet, the same issues seem to persist. This is one of the reasons why I thought either Marcus or Jaylen needed to be traded this off season. The personalities of your best players can effect the rest of the team. With that in mind, Jayson and Jaylen need to flip a switch in two key areas.

1. No matter how talented their opponent is, they are never entitled to winning on any night. This team seems to constantly blow leads or not take teams seriously.

2. I do believe Jayson and Jaylen want to win. However, what's holding them back is not hating to lose. They need to hate losing more than wanting to win.

Excellent point. Another way to say it is that the J's want to win, but don't need to win the way Cowens, Garnett, Bird and Russell did.

What good did Garnett’s “need to win” do him prior to joining Boston?

Huh ?  Non-sequitur Gouk.
Garnett didn't have enough talent around him in Minny. He did in Boston.

Tatum and Brown do have enough talent on this team to have already won a title.
That's the point the OP was making - thus meaning something else is the reason for the playoff failures.

It‘s just that your distinction is meaningless. The reality is that none of us know how much player X “needed” to win vs player Y merely “wanting” to

Sure we do. It's obvious those players that would run thru a wall to win a title.
Similar to johnny's phrase of "wanting to win" vs "hating to lose."

[Vermont Green]

A lot of players have come and gone over the last few years, with essentially the exception of Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Yet, the same issues seem to persist. This is one of the reasons why I thought either Marcus or Jaylen needed to be traded this off season. The personalities of your best players can effect the rest of the team. With that in mind, Jayson and Jaylen need to flip a switch in two key areas.

1. No matter how talented their opponent is, they are never entitled to winning on any night. This team seems to constantly blow leads or not take teams seriously.

2. I do believe Jayson and Jaylen want to win. However, what's holding them back is not hating to lose. They need to hate losing more than wanting to win.

Excellent point. Another way to say it is that the J's want to win, but don't need to win the way Cowens, Garnett, Bird and Russell did.

What good did Garnett’s “need to win” do him prior to joining Boston?

Huh ?  Non-sequitur Gouk.
Garnett didn't have enough talent around him in Minny. He did in Boston.

Tatum and Brown do have enough talent on this team to have already won a title.
That's the point the OP was making - thus meaning something else is the reason for the playoff failures.

It‘s just that your distinction is meaningless. The reality is that none of us know how much player X “needed” to win vs player Y merely “wanting” to

Sure we do. It's obvious those players that would run thru a wall to win a title.
Similar to johnny's phrase of "wanting to win" vs "hating to lose."

This is just a circular debate.  Kevin Garnett had more focus and drive than any human can have.  He won 1 title, proving it takes a lot more than that to win a title.  A lot needs to go right.  I think Tatum, Brown, and now Porzingis have plenty of "want".  They want to win enough and I am sure they hate losing plenty.  In 2022, GSW simply handled the pressure better.  They played better.  In 2023, I think all the emotions around Ime and the coaching change finally caught up with the team.  We played bad for 3 games when it mattered most.  Tatum is a young sole I feel, but he is growing up.  I have not given up on him.

[SparzWizard]

A lot of players have come and gone over the last few years, with essentially the exception of Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Yet, the same issues seem to persist. This is one of the reasons why I thought either Marcus or Jaylen needed to be traded this off season. The personalities of your best players can effect the rest of the team. With that in mind, Jayson and Jaylen need to flip a switch in two key areas.

1. No matter how talented their opponent is, they are never entitled to winning on any night. This team seems to constantly blow leads or not take teams seriously.

2. I do believe Jayson and Jaylen want to win. However, what's holding them back is not hating to lose. They need to hate losing more than wanting to win.

Excellent point. Another way to say it is that the J's want to win, but don't need to win the way Cowens, Garnett, Bird and Russell did.

What good did Garnett’s “need to win” do him prior to joining Boston?

Huh ?  Non-sequitur Gouk.
Garnett didn't have enough talent around him in Minny. He did in Boston.

Tatum and Brown do have enough talent on this team to have already won a title.
That's the point the OP was making - thus meaning something else is the reason for the playoff failures.

It‘s just that your distinction is meaningless. The reality is that none of us know how much player X “needed” to win vs player Y merely “wanting” to

Sure we do. It's obvious those players that would run thru a wall to win a title.
Similar to johnny's phrase of "wanting to win" vs "hating to lose."

This is just a circular debate.  Kevin Garnett had more focus and drive than any human can have.  He won 1 title, proving it takes a lot more than that to win a title.  A lot needs to go right.  I think Tatum, Brown, and now Porzingis have plenty of "want".  They want to win enough and I am sure they hate losing plenty.  In 2022, GSW simply handled the pressure better.  They played better.  In 2023, I think all the emotions around Ime and the coaching change finally caught up with the team.  We played bad for 3 games when it mattered most.  Tatum is a young sole I feel, but he is growing up.  I have not given up on him.

2022 the C's lost because of 16+ turnovers each game when they lost.

2023 the C's lost because of a myriad of things ranging from locker room problems to coaching to soft mentality to injuries...the list goes on.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Watching a replay of the 1984 Finals Game 7.....C's up big to start the 4th Quarter...Then they take their foot off the gas, slow it down and ALMOST lose the Championship to The Lakers in The old Boston Garden...Missed shots and turnovers...Barely hung on---bet they would have lost if teams shot the 3 pointer like they do now--All the while, CBS announcer Tommy Heinsohn was saying the Celtics are making a big mistake by slowing it down...So, these younger Celtics do the exact same thing as our Larry Bird led Celtics did...Crazy.