The unspoken "real" issue with these celtics...

[Moranis]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

my guys were in order i.e. Embiid not top 3.  Not sure why you responded in that manner.

I misread, but it doesn't matter, as the point still stands regardless of someone putting him in the top 3 or top 5

he hasn't been healthy in the playoffs. Which if you dock him for that, I can see, but he is the defending MVP of the league.  Saddled with terrible management and poor coaching.  I'm not a huge Nurse fan, but he is the best coach Embiid has had and Maxey seems like the right kind of 2nd fiddle for him.  They need to do something positive with Harden though, as he doesn't want to be there and doesn't make a ton of sense with Maxey

[Moranis]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally.

Some things:

You have 62 on 2 different teams.

Do you really think Maxey is better than Porzingis, as the rankings suggest? Who would u start a team with?

At some point don't you believe that Philly isn't underachieving and Boston isn't overachieving, that despite what your calculus says, Boston is just better?

Bottom line, u rely waaaay too much on these subjective numbers. Basketball isn't won doing Math.

Zinger is 61 not 62 (I mistyped it as I had mentioned that earlier). 

And yes I think Maxey is better than Porzingis and still has a ways to go.  I think he will top out in the top 25 range, especially when he gets more control of the offense (i.e. away from Harden).  Very smooth scorer, solid ball handler, improving passer, etc.

Maxey over Porzingis is just hilarious

and yet that is a national publication

[gouki88]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally.

Some things:

You have 62 on 2 different teams.

Do you really think Maxey is better than Porzingis, as the rankings suggest? Who would u start a team with?

At some point don't you believe that Philly isn't underachieving and Boston isn't overachieving, that despite what your calculus says, Boston is just better?

Bottom line, u rely waaaay too much on these subjective numbers. Basketball isn't won doing Math.

Zinger is 61 not 62 (I mistyped it as I had mentioned that earlier). 

And yes I think Maxey is better than Porzingis and still has a ways to go.  I think he will top out in the top 25 range, especially when he gets more control of the offense (i.e. away from Harden).  Very smooth scorer, solid ball handler, improving passer, etc.

Maxey over Porzingis is just hilarious

and yet that is a national publication

So?

[Kernewek]

I can agree with Philadelphia underachieving, but I also think that at some point your record is who you are - so Philadelphia are chronic underachievers. They ‘should’ be better. I don’t think anyone doubts that.

The encouraging thing about Boston ‘overachieving’ -  which I think you can make a case for but, again, this means the Celtics are verging on chronic overachiever status - is that it necessarily creates a reality where the team, which has already been pretty great in the last few seasons, could be even better.

[Donoghus]

I can agree with Philadelphia underachieving, but I also think that at some point your record is who you are - so Philadelphia are chronic underachievers. They should be better. I don’t think anyone doubts that.

The encouraging thing about Boston ‘overachieving’ -  which I think you can make a case for but, again, they would probably be chronic overachievers if this is the narrative - is that it necessarily creates a reality where the team, which has already been pretty great in the last few seasons, could be even better.

I actually think Boston underachieved last season.

[Vermont Green]

Porzingis Seems to be the one whose ranking is out of whack. At least in my opinion.  I expect him to be much better than 61.  We’ll see.

[Kernewek]

I can agree with Philadelphia underachieving, but I also think that at some point your record is who you are - so Philadelphia are chronic underachievers. They should be better. I don’t think anyone doubts that.

The encouraging thing about Boston ‘overachieving’ -  which I think you can make a case for but, again, they would probably be chronic overachievers if this is the narrative - is that it necessarily creates a reality where the team, which has already been pretty great in the last few seasons, could be even better.

I actually think Boston underachieved last season.

Yeah possibly - they certainly didn’t live up to the flashes of play we saw at the start of the season. Plus, given the way that the wheels seem to have fallen off when the coaching staff started jumping ship, there’s a pretty strong case.

But if ‘underachieving’ is a 7 Game Conference Finals team, that’s not a bad team to root for (even if last year’s team did feel like a bad team to root for at times).

[Who]

Porzingis Seems to be the one whose ranking is out of whack. At least in my opinion.  I expect him to be much better than 61.  We’ll see.

I'd probably have him in the 30-40 range.
I'd have Brogdon in the 60-75 range.

The others all seem about right to me.

[Who]

Tyrese Maxey averaged 24.8 points, 5.4 assists and 3.8 rebounds in 13 games without James Harden in 2022-23.

Dude was lighting it up too. 47% FG% on almost 20 FGA 43% 3PT% on 7+ 3PTA 80% FT% on 4 FTA. Low FT attempts only a 20% FT rate (FTA / FGA) but otherwise impressive efficiency.

Good consistency too. Two low scoring games with 11pts, 15pts. Then an 18pt game. Everything else was 21-32pts nights. Oh one 37pt night.

20ppg on the season. 60% TS%.

[Who]

I don't think Tobias Harris gets his due for Philly. He is a very good player. Not an All-Star but a top 50 player in the league. I get bothered when I see Philly referred to as a Big 3 (Embiid, Harden, Maxey) or a Big 2 (Harden, Embiid or a post-Harden Maxey, Embiid duo).

[Who]

Philly's main problem is their supporting cast. They have a great core (main 4 guys) but the rest of their roster stinks. That is stopping them from matching Boston or Milwaukee.

The core is indeed the most important part of the squad but the supporting cast matters too. You can't ignore them.

The strength of a team's core gives a team the chance to compete for a title but ability or inability to surround them with a quality supporting cast decides whether they will be successful or not in winning a title. Philly have succeeded in building a terrific core but failed miserably with their supporting cast.

So far this summer, no real progress for Philly. They are maintaining cap flexability to retool around Embiid and Maxey in 12 months time when Harden's & T.Harris' deals expire. So they have been limited in signing guys this summer. I expect them to fail again next year.

[Donoghus]

I don't think Tobias Harris gets his due for Philly. He is a very good player. Not an All-Star but a top 50 player in the league. I get bothered when I see Philly referred to as a Big 3 (Embiid, Harden, Maxey) or a Big 2 (Harden, Embiid or a post-Harden Maxey, Embiid duo).

The best thing about Tobias Harris, at this point, is that he's an expiring contract this season.

[gouki88]

I don't think Tobias Harris gets his due for Philly. He is a very good player. Not an All-Star but a top 50 player in the league. I get bothered when I see Philly referred to as a Big 3 (Embiid, Harden, Maxey) or a Big 2 (Harden, Embiid or a post-Harden Maxey, Embiid duo).

I think that probably stems from his contract. He is paid like an All-Star

[Moranis]

Porzingis Seems to be the one whose ranking is out of whack. At least in my opinion.  I expect him to be much better than 61.  We’ll see.

I'd probably have him in the 30-40 range.
I'd have Brogdon in the 60-75 range.

The others all seem about right to me.

That seems really high for Porzingis.  The players the Ringer had in that range were in order from 30:

Zion
Towns
Haliburton
JJJ
Draymond
Garland
Mobley
Bridges
Holiday
Bane
Kyrie

Porzingis isn't better than any of those players.  41-50 in order

DeRozan
Beal
Randle
Murray
Gordon
Wiggins
LaVine
Paul
Middleton
LaMelo

You could maybe argue a couple of those guys, but again I don't think Porzingis is better than them if everyone is healthy.

51-60

VanVleet
Gobert
Grant
Lopez
Maxey
Klay
Barnes
OG
Claxton
Banchero

then you Porzingis and there are the guys directly after him

MPJ
Turner
Allen
Cunningham
Ayton
Horford
White
Giddey
Rob

Porzingis seems about right to me.  He could be a few spots higher, but I can't see him jumping all the way up into the 30's.  There are just too many players better than him in that tier.

They had Herro at 74, Herro is better than Brogdon.  There is no way he should be in the 60's at all.  A few spots higher, sure, but not that big a jump. 

[gouki88]

Porzingis Seems to be the one whose ranking is out of whack. At least in my opinion.  I expect him to be much better than 61.  We’ll see.

I'd probably have him in the 30-40 range.
I'd have Brogdon in the 60-75 range.

The others all seem about right to me.

That seems really high for Porzingis.  The players the Ringer had in that range were in order from 30:

Zion
Towns
Haliburton
JJJ
Draymond
Garland
Mobley
Bridges
Holiday
Bane
Kyrie

Porzingis isn't better than any of those players.  41-50 in order

DeRozan
Beal
Randle
Murray
Gordon
Wiggins
LaVine
Paul
Middleton
LaMelo

You could maybe argue a couple of those guys, but again I don't think Porzingis is better than them if everyone is healthy.

51-60

VanVleet
Gobert
Grant
Lopez
Maxey
Klay
Barnes
OG
Claxton
Banchero

then you Porzingis and there are the guys directly after him

MPJ
Turner
Allen
Cunningham
Ayton
Horford
White
Giddey
Rob

Porzingis seems about right to me.  He could be a few spots higher, but I can't see him jumping all the way up into the 30's.  There are just too many players better than him in that tier.

They had Herro at 74, Herro is better than Brogdon.  There is no way he should be in the 60's at all.  A few spots higher, sure, but not that big a jump.

"If everyone is healthy" presumably includes Porzingis too, right?

In which case, it is legitimately laughable that you would consider so many of those players to be his superior. Aaron freakin Gordon? Desmond Bane? Andrew Wiggins? Chris Paul??

I can't actually believe you to be serious when you say things like that. You just have to be baiting for engagement. Your criminal underrating of our talent + wildly overrating that of others is being taken to another level.