Jordan Walsh in Summer League

[obnoxiousmime]

I'm not going to come out of this Summer League with a conclusion on Walsh, other than it was good to see him get some experience without getting hurt. I think the Iguodala comps are premature, but the length and defensive tendencies do seem to be there. I think the Celtics once again will win 55+ games, so he should get solid minutes with both the starters and scrubs. The future is bright for this guy!

I should clarify - I don't think the odds are that he'll be like Iguodala, but just that on certain plays I was reminded of how Iggy would operate in Philly

TP- not directed at you. I also see Iggy as an optimistic comp. In college, he showed defensive energy and an ability to run the floor. That alone should get him 10-15 minutes out of the gates.

This team is definitely committed to the 3 point shot, so he will have to improve. If Walsh really is a hard worker, he could improve over time, as Marcus Smart did.

Will Cs be as committed to the 3 as they were last year?  Certainly some of their moves, or almost moves, tell us that it’s possible they’ll be at least somewhat less reliant on the long ball.  They traded Muscala, Gallo, and Grant, and tried to trade their top 3-shooter in Brogdon.  They got back average 3-guy in KP who’ll shoot most of his shots inside the arc.  True they ended up trading below average shooter in Smart, but that’s 5.6 3-attempts per game.

I’m not saying the 3-ball won’t be a factor in the Cs offense, but I hope the 3 is less in their heads as a first option.

If you look at their moves as a whole this offseason, other than Porzingis they added 3 guys that are around 6'7''-6'9'' who are athletic and at least two of which are frequently described as "energy" guys in Brissett and Walsh. That tells me that they were focused on getting more long athletes who can move around better and play faster, even at the expense of good 3 pt. shooting.

As good as Grant was for us as a spot-up shooter and versatile defender, I think there were definitely times when his lack of wing skills hurt. He was never natural when putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, and his lack of straight-line running speed/so-so finishing ability meant he wasn't the best transition player. I think other than the yapping issue, most of his friction with Joe was centered around not wanting to just stand in the corner on offense.

This isn't to say that we don't still need somebody with some heft defensively at that 4 spot, but overall the team is definitely more athletic with taller/longer options at the wing and guard positions.

[Alleyoopster]

I'm not going to come out of this Summer League with a conclusion on Walsh, other than it was good to see him get some experience without getting hurt. I think the Iguodala comps are premature, but the length and defensive tendencies do seem to be there. I think the Celtics once again will win 55+ games, so he should get solid minutes with both the starters and scrubs. The future is bright for this guy!

I should clarify - I don't think the odds are that he'll be like Iguodala, but just that on certain plays I was reminded of how Iggy would operate in Philly

TP- not directed at you. I also see Iggy as an optimistic comp. In college, he showed defensive energy and an ability to run the floor. That alone should get him 10-15 minutes out of the gates.

This team is definitely committed to the 3 point shot, so he will have to improve. If Walsh really is a hard worker, he could improve over time, as Marcus Smart did.

Will Cs be as committed to the 3 as they were last year?  Certainly some of their moves, or almost moves, tell us that it’s possible they’ll be at least somewhat less reliant on the long ball.  They traded Muscala, Gallo, and Grant, and tried to trade their top 3-shooter in Brogdon.  They got back average 3-guy in KP who’ll shoot most of his shots inside the arc.  True they ended up trading below average shooter in Smart, but that’s 5.6 3-attempts per game.

I’m not saying the 3-ball won’t be a factor in the Cs offense, but I hope the 3 is less in their heads as a first option.

If you look at their moves as a whole this offseason, other than Porzingis they added 3 guys that are around 6'7''-6'9'' who are athletic and at least two of which are frequently described as "energy" guys in Brissett and Walsh. That tells me that they were focused on getting more long athletes who can move around better and play faster, even at the expense of good 3 pt. shooting.

As good as Grant was for us as a spot-up shooter and versatile defender, I think there were definitely times when his lack of wing skills hurt. He was never natural when putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, and his lack of straight-line running speed/so-so finishing ability meant he wasn't the best transition player. I think other than the yapping issue, most of his friction with Joe was centered around not wanting to just stand in the corner on offense.

This isn't to say that we don't still need somebody with some heft defensively at that 4 spot, but overall the team is definitely more athletic with taller/longer options at the wing and guard positions.

I still believe having a stronger, versatile defending, decent 3-point shooter like Grant outweighs these taller, faster and less accurate shooting arrivals.Brad made a mistake not signing Williams.

[Alleyoopster]

I'm not going to come out of this Summer League with a conclusion on Walsh, other than it was good to see him get some experience without getting hurt. I think the Iguodala comps are premature, but the length and defensive tendencies do seem to be there. I think the Celtics once again will win 55+ games, so he should get solid minutes with both the starters and scrubs. The future is bright for this guy!

I should clarify - I don't think the odds are that he'll be like Iguodala, but just that on certain plays I was reminded of how Iggy would operate in Philly

TP- not directed at you. I also see Iggy as an optimistic comp. In college, he showed defensive energy and an ability to run the floor. That alone should get him 10-15 minutes out of the gates.

This team is definitely committed to the 3 point shot, so he will have to improve. If Walsh really is a hard worker, he could improve over time, as Marcus Smart did.

Will Cs be as committed to the 3 as they were last year?  Certainly some of their moves, or almost moves, tell us that it’s possible they’ll be at least somewhat less reliant on the long ball.  They traded Muscala, Gallo, and Grant, and tried to trade their top 3-shooter in Brogdon.  They got back average 3-guy in KP who’ll shoot most of his shots inside the arc.  True they ended up trading below average shooter in Smart, but that’s 5.6 3-attempts per game.

I’m not saying the 3-ball won’t be a factor in the Cs offense, but I hope the 3 is less in their heads as a first option.

If you look at their moves as a whole this offseason, other than Porzingis they added 3 guys that are around 6'7''-6'9'' who are athletic and at least two of which are frequently described as "energy" guys in Brissett and Walsh. That tells me that they were focused on getting more long athletes who can move around better and play faster, even at the expense of good 3 pt. shooting.

As good as Grant was for us as a spot-up shooter and versatile defender, I think there were definitely times when his lack of wing skills hurt. He was never natural when putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, and his lack of straight-line running speed/so-so finishing ability meant he wasn't the best transition player. I think other than the yapping issue, most of his friction with Joe was centered around not wanting to just stand in the corner on offense.

This isn't to say that we don't still need somebody with some heft defensively at that 4 spot, but overall the team is definitely more athletic with taller/longer options at the wing and guard positions.

I still believe having a strong, versatile defending, decent 3-point shooter player like Grant  outweighs these taller, faster and less accurate shooting arrivals.

[jambr380]

I wouldn't get excited by the stats of anyone in summer league, but what you can see is the attitude, mindset and bball instincts of the rookies that imo holds up in their NBA performances. Walsh showed a really great competitiveness, defensive instincts and court vision for a guy at his position.

Yeah, I was going to mention his attitude and effective hustle as major pluses that shouldn't go unnoticed. He is even super-engaged and gregarious in his interviews which is just an extension of his energy on the court.

I will say that while it's hard to get too excited about SL, I do think it's a positive when a 19 yr old Wing shows out on defense and [a fairly diverse] offense. Ball dominant guards and big men who only rebound and dunk don't always translate to the NBA. Obviously, Walsh still has a lot to prove, but he looks the part and also seems willing to learn.

[Vermont Green]

Jordan Walsh passed his first test. He looked good in summer league. He has several more milestones to pass before he can be expected to play regularly in the NBA. But so far so good.

[greg683x]

Kedrick Brown ruined any excitement summer league creates for me

I can’t find any stats on him during summer league, but my recollection was that he was very passive offensively and I was just watching hoping to see him do something good. Perhaps my recollection fails me, but if not, it’s very different than Walsh who showed more offensive game and better long range shooting than I expected.

I found this:

In 2003, John Salmons of the Philadelphia 76ers was named the league's Most Outstanding Player with an average of 19.6 points and 5.8 assists per game. Salmons was also named to the Reebok Pro Summer League First Team with Kedrick Brown and Brandon Hunter of the Boston Celtics, Devin Brown of the San Antonio Spurs and Donny Marshall of the New Jersey Nets. The second team consisted of Juan Dixon of the Washington Wizards, T.J. Ford of the Milwaukee Bucks, Marcus Banks of the Boston Celtics, Brian Scalabrine of the New Jersey Nets and Carlos Boozer of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Great find. ALWAYS hopeful about prospects!! - including that crew - Hunter, Banks, Kedrick (where’s Joe Forte?). We know how they all turned out.
Funny that the one from that era of prospects that panned out, Joe Johnson, was the one traded. Chris Wallace was a disaster with Boston and then handed LAL a dynasty with Memphis.  Hopefully Brad has a better feel for gauging the future development of young talent, but no one bats a thousand.

Another quirk about summer league for me too was that I remember Al Jefferson being very under whelming.  Not bad, just kind of pedestrian.  I remember being more impressed with him in the spot minutes he’d get during the regular season. 

[libermaniac]

Kedrick Brown ruined any excitement summer league creates for me

I can’t find any stats on him during summer league, but my recollection was that he was very passive offensively and I was just watching hoping to see him do something good. Perhaps my recollection fails me, but if not, it’s very different than Walsh who showed more offensive game and better long range shooting than I expected.

I found this:

In 2003, John Salmons of the Philadelphia 76ers was named the league's Most Outstanding Player with an average of 19.6 points and 5.8 assists per game. Salmons was also named to the Reebok Pro Summer League First Team with Kedrick Brown and Brandon Hunter of the Boston Celtics, Devin Brown of the San Antonio Spurs and Donny Marshall of the New Jersey Nets. The second team consisted of Juan Dixon of the Washington Wizards, T.J. Ford of the Milwaukee Bucks, Marcus Banks of the Boston Celtics, Brian Scalabrine of the New Jersey Nets and Carlos Boozer of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Great find. ALWAYS hopeful about prospects!! - including that crew - Hunter, Banks, Kedrick (where’s Joe Forte?). We know how they all turned out.
Funny that the one from that era of prospects that panned out, Joe Johnson, was the one traded. Chris Wallace was a disaster with Boston and then handed LAL a dynasty with Memphis.  Hopefully Brad has a better feel for gauging the future development of young talent, but no one bats a thousand.

Another quirk about summer league for me too was that I remember Al Jefferson being very under whelming.  Not bad, just kind of pedestrian.  I remember being more impressed with him in the spot minutes he’d get during the regular season.

Hmm. I had the opposite thought. I could tell he had an amazingly advanced low post game - back when that still mattered. 😉

[hpantazo]

Kedrick Brown ruined any excitement summer league creates for me

I can’t find any stats on him during summer league, but my recollection was that he was very passive offensively and I was just watching hoping to see him do something good. Perhaps my recollection fails me, but if not, it’s very different than Walsh who showed more offensive game and better long range shooting than I expected.

I found this:

In 2003, John Salmons of the Philadelphia 76ers was named the league's Most Outstanding Player with an average of 19.6 points and 5.8 assists per game. Salmons was also named to the Reebok Pro Summer League First Team with Kedrick Brown and Brandon Hunter of the Boston Celtics, Devin Brown of the San Antonio Spurs and Donny Marshall of the New Jersey Nets. The second team consisted of Juan Dixon of the Washington Wizards, T.J. Ford of the Milwaukee Bucks, Marcus Banks of the Boston Celtics, Brian Scalabrine of the New Jersey Nets and Carlos Boozer of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Great find. ALWAYS hopeful about prospects!! - including that crew - Hunter, Banks, Kedrick (where’s Joe Forte?). We know how they all turned out.
Funny that the one from that era of prospects that panned out, Joe Johnson, was the one traded. Chris Wallace was a disaster with Boston and then handed LAL a dynasty with Memphis.  Hopefully Brad has a better feel for gauging the future development of young talent, but no one bats a thousand.

Another quirk about summer league for me too was that I remember Al Jefferson being very under whelming.  Not bad, just kind of pedestrian.  I remember being more impressed with him in the spot minutes he’d get during the regular season.

Hmm. I had the opposite thought. I could tell he had an amazingly advanced low post game - back when that still mattered. 😉

Tatum had some great low post moves in summer league. We've barely ever seen them again since then though!

[libermaniac]

Kedrick Brown ruined any excitement summer league creates for me

I can’t find any stats on him during summer league, but my recollection was that he was very passive offensively and I was just watching hoping to see him do something good. Perhaps my recollection fails me, but if not, it’s very different than Walsh who showed more offensive game and better long range shooting than I expected.

I found this:

In 2003, John Salmons of the Philadelphia 76ers was named the league's Most Outstanding Player with an average of 19.6 points and 5.8 assists per game. Salmons was also named to the Reebok Pro Summer League First Team with Kedrick Brown and Brandon Hunter of the Boston Celtics, Devin Brown of the San Antonio Spurs and Donny Marshall of the New Jersey Nets. The second team consisted of Juan Dixon of the Washington Wizards, T.J. Ford of the Milwaukee Bucks, Marcus Banks of the Boston Celtics, Brian Scalabrine of the New Jersey Nets and Carlos Boozer of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Kedrick Brown was drafted in 2001. 2003 was after his 2nd NBA season. So my guess is I’m remembering his first year, where he did not impress. 2 years later he probably figured out enough to do well in summer league - the highlight of his career. 😉

[greg683x]

Kedrick Brown ruined any excitement summer league creates for me

I can’t find any stats on him during summer league, but my recollection was that he was very passive offensively and I was just watching hoping to see him do something good. Perhaps my recollection fails me, but if not, it’s very different than Walsh who showed more offensive game and better long range shooting than I expected.

I found this:

In 2003, John Salmons of the Philadelphia 76ers was named the league's Most Outstanding Player with an average of 19.6 points and 5.8 assists per game. Salmons was also named to the Reebok Pro Summer League First Team with Kedrick Brown and Brandon Hunter of the Boston Celtics, Devin Brown of the San Antonio Spurs and Donny Marshall of the New Jersey Nets. The second team consisted of Juan Dixon of the Washington Wizards, T.J. Ford of the Milwaukee Bucks, Marcus Banks of the Boston Celtics, Brian Scalabrine of the New Jersey Nets and Carlos Boozer of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Great find. ALWAYS hopeful about prospects!! - including that crew - Hunter, Banks, Kedrick (where’s Joe Forte?). We know how they all turned out.
Funny that the one from that era of prospects that panned out, Joe Johnson, was the one traded. Chris Wallace was a disaster with Boston and then handed LAL a dynasty with Memphis.  Hopefully Brad has a better feel for gauging the future development of young talent, but no one bats a thousand.

Another quirk about summer league for me too was that I remember Al Jefferson being very under whelming.  Not bad, just kind of pedestrian.  I remember being more impressed with him in the spot minutes he’d get during the regular season.

Hmm. I had the opposite thought. I could tell he had an amazingly advanced low post game - back when that still mattered. 😉

I could be misremembering.  I also might have had too high of expectations.  He showed such a polished offensive game during his rookie season, in summer league the following year I remember expecting him to just destroy the competition and then being disappointed. 

[obnoxiousmime]

I still believe having a strong, versatile defending, decent 3-point shooter player like Grant  outweighs these taller, faster and less accurate shooting arrivals.

Sure, I mean they're not supposed to be exactly the same which is why we still kind of have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup. You could also look at the two minimum signings as low-risk fliers on two guys that might still have room to grow, as opposed to drawing any kind of grand conclusions about a new direction or philosophy change.

[Surferdad]

I still believe having a strong, versatile defending, decent 3-point shooter player like Grant  outweighs these taller, faster and less accurate shooting arrivals.

Sure, I mean they're not supposed to be exactly the same which is why we still kind of have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup. You could also look at the two minimum signings as low-risk fliers on two guys that might still have room to grow, as opposed to drawing any kind of grand conclusions about a new direction or philosophy change.

I'm also ok with the fliers on Champagnie and Brissett. One of these days, a flier is actually going to fly! Brissett's monster game against the C's a few years ago is still etched in my brain.

[Celtics4ever]

I still believe having a stronger, versatile defending, decent 3-point shooter like Grant outweighs these taller, faster and less accurate shooting arrivals.Brad made a mistake not signing Williams.

Can we quit on the good defender narrative on Grant because that is a false one. Grant Williams has a defensive rating of 110.9 in his career.

Here are guys who is supposedly very good against.
Grant Williams has a defensive rating of 110.2 versus Bam Adebayo in his career.
Grant Williams has a defensive rating of 113.0 versus Giannis Antetokounmpo in his career. 
Grant Williams has a defensive rating of 115.1 versus Joel Embiid in his career.

Defensive rating simply shows how many points a player allows per 100 possessions.   This statistic works differently than a simple plus/minus system, where all points scored while a player is on the court count against him. Only the buckets that are scored as a result of his defensive lapses are counted against him. Defensive rating also eliminates factors like pace of play and minutes played per game.  It is also important to note that as opposed to most other basketball stats, lower numbers are better when it comes to defensive rating.

https://www.statmuse.com/

Grant real value on defensive was six fouls and making guys tired by using his bulk not being a rock solid defender.   Right now we don't have a body like like on the roster.  We lost our two best agitators on D, who triggered opponents in Marcus and Grant, though White is not bad that in that area he is more subtle and about charges.   Marcus and Grant gave up their bodies on D which is an art form.

Walsh was obviously focusing more on his three point shooting than defense.   What I like best is his length and his range as a defender and he can cover a lot of space.   He has some work to do but seemed to vastly improve his shooting over his college percentages , that tells me he is a hard worker.

Brad Stevens on Jordan Walsh being a shooter in Boston: “When he came for his second draft workout, we did 100 spot 3’s, he was in the 50’s in May and 74 in late June. So that shows you there’s work being put in. It shows you he’s got the touch to be a good shooter.

It may take some time for him to flesh out all areas of the game being 19, but you have to like what we have seen thus far.    Now it was not against NBA competition but it is better to do well than falter in summer league

[Vermont Green]

I don't see the point in trying to compare Grant to Walsh.  Grant was going to be our 4th big behind Porzingis, RWill, and Horford, and ahead of Kornet.  It now appears that he didn't want to be here anymore anyway, that he wanted a change of scenery.  The truth is that he did bump down the depth chart with Porzingis arriving.  So people are complaining that we didn't still sign an undersized bench PF, who didn't want to be here, for way more than he is worth in the role he would have for the Celtics?

Grant was a good bench PF, he made an important contribution to the team.  I do not think Walsh is going to replace that.  But keep in mind that last season, Grant was our 3rd big (Muscala or Griffin was the 4th big), this season he was going to be the 4th big.  Brissett may be able to provide minutes at the back up PF, I don't know.  But this is the 4th big we are talking about, we will find someone for this role.  It does not have to be Walsh.

[Roy H.]

Jared Weiss gives his Celtics Summer League grades:

Davison:  D+
Banton:  B
Walsh:  B+
Scrubb: A-
Champagnie: C

https://theathletic.com/4695160/2023/07/17/celtics-summer-league-jordan-walsh-jd-davison/

That seems like some kind grading with Banton, and a bit harsh with Walsh.