Celtics New TPE

[keevsnick]

I agree with most everything you’ve said, except that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the second apron is the limit of their budget.  I think management of the Celtics and several other teams are using the second apron as a reason to set the budget limit there, as opposed to it just happening to fall there.

Ya, you are probably right. There's a reason the league fought for these rules in the CBA, my guess is a lot of owners wanted a built in excuse to limit their own spending.

[Roy H.]

I agree there are no financial reasons for staying below the 2nd apron this season.

I believe there are more harsh penalties if a club gets into a repeater 2nd apron offender status (over 2nd apron 3 out of 5 yrs).

Maybe Wyc just doesn't want to start the repeater clock.

Another poster -- keevsnick? -- pointed this out, but the second apron repeated tax and the restrictions on trading you first rounder seven years out don't go into effect until 2025.

[keevsnick]

I agree there are no financial reasons for staying below the 2nd apron this season.

I believe there are more harsh penalties if a club gets into a repeater 2nd apron offender status (over 2nd apron 3 out of 5 yrs).

Maybe Wyc just doesn't want to start the repeater clock.

Another poster -- keevsnick? -- pointed this out, but the second apron repeated tax and the restrictions on trading you first rounder seven years out don't go into effect until 2025.

Just to be clear here: There is no repeater tax for the 2nd apron, in that being over the 2nd apron multiple times doesn't in any way change the financial penalty you pay. The repeater tax is for just being over the normal luxury tax line.

But what i think you're referring to is the 2nd apron draft pick penalty. Being over the 2nd apron starting in 24-25 freezes your draft pick 7 years out (so in 32' for the year 24-25). Following that year if a team is over the 2nd apron 2 or more of the next 4 years their frozen pick gets sent to the back of the draft. But if they over fewer than 2 of the next 4 their pick gets un-frozen and no penalty is applied to the previously frozen pick.

What this means, i think, is if you want to avoid the draft pick penalty you could be over the 2nd apron two straight years, then under the next three. But your pick's would still be frozen during that period.

[Vermont Green]

I agree with most everything you’ve said, except that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the second apron is the limit of their budget.  I think management of the Celtics and several other teams are using the second apron as a reason to set the budget limit there, as opposed to it just happening to fall there.

Ya, you are probably right. There's a reason the league fought for these rules in the CBA, my guess is a lot of owners wanted a built in excuse to limit their own spending.

I would hope that management/ownership wouldn't pass on a good trade, say for a back up PF with the TPE, just because it put us $1M over the second apron or because that $1M in salary that is over a seemingly arbitrary budget line, would really cost $4M or whatever due to tax payments.  To me, that is very different than signing Grant for 4 years and $53M.  I don't draw the conclusion that not signing Grant means they won't go $1 over the second apron.  That just does not seem like smart business to me.

Of course finding that "good" trade is something different.  You have to believe that the player you get with the TPE and whatever draft picks go with it, is going to be worth it.  Plus you only get one shot with it.  I expect that the Celtics will be very discerning in regards to any trade or other acquisition at this point.  The roster isn't perfect but it is pretty darn good, still 1 or 2 in betting odds to win the title (essentially the same as DEN).  They are probably going to "wait and see" before doing anything more.  I have no problem with that.

[Vermont Green]

I agree there are no financial reasons for staying below the 2nd apron this season.

I believe there are more harsh penalties if a club gets into a repeater 2nd apron offender status (over 2nd apron 3 out of 5 yrs).

Maybe Wyc just doesn't want to start the repeater clock.

Another poster -- keevsnick? -- pointed this out, but the second apron repeated tax and the restrictions on trading you first rounder seven years out don't go into effect until 2025.

Just to be clear here: There is no repeater tax for the 2nd apron, in that being over the 2nd apron multiple times doesn't in any way change the financial penalty you pay. The repeater tax is for just being over the normal luxury tax line.

But what i think you're referring to is the 2nd apron draft pick penalty. Being over the 2nd apron starting in 24-25 freezes your draft pick 7 years out (so in 32' for the year 24-25). Following that year if a team is over the 2nd apron 2 or more of the next 4 years their frozen pick gets sent to the back of the draft. But if they over fewer than 2 of the next 4 their pick gets un-frozen and no penalty is applied to the previously frozen pick.

What this means, i think, is if you want to avoid the draft pick penalty you could be over the 2nd apron two straight years, then under the next three. But your pick's would still be during that period.

By "freeze" you mean can't trade?  If this is the case (this is consistent with what I have seen elsewhere), I would hope the Celtics would not pass on a good trade or FA, that put them a little over the second apron, just because they wouldn't be able to trade a first round pick 7 years in the future.  That would make no sense to me.

I reread your post, frozen means send to the back of the first round.  That is a little harsher than just not being able to trade, but I don't see how we are going to avoid the second apron over the next 5 seasons with the contracts we will be giving Brown and Tatum.

[Roy H.]

I agree there are no financial reasons for staying below the 2nd apron this season.

I believe there are more harsh penalties if a club gets into a repeater 2nd apron offender status (over 2nd apron 3 out of 5 yrs).

Maybe Wyc just doesn't want to start the repeater clock.

Another poster -- keevsnick? -- pointed this out, but the second apron repeated tax and the restrictions on trading you first rounder seven years out don't go into effect until 2025.

Just to be clear here: There is no repeater tax for the 2nd apron, in that being over the 2nd apron multiple times doesn't in any way change the financial penalty you pay. The repeater tax is for just being over the normal luxury tax line.

But what i think you're referring to is the 2nd apron draft pick penalty. Being over the 2nd apron starting in 24-25 freezes your draft pick 7 years out (so in 32' for the year 24-25). Following that year if a team is over the 2nd apron 2 or more of the next 4 years their frozen pick gets sent to the back of the draft. But if they over fewer than 2 of the next 4 their pick gets un-frozen and no penalty is applied to the previously frozen pick.

What this means, i think, is if you want to avoid the draft pick penalty you could be over the 2nd apron two straight years, then under the next three. But your pick's would still be during that period.

By "freeze" you mean can't trade?  If this is the case (this is consistent with what I have seen elsewhere), I would hope the Celtics would not pass on a good trade or FA, that put them a little over the second apron, just because they wouldn't be able to trade a first round pick 7 years in the future.  That would make no sense to me.

Well, it's not *just* a trade restriction.  Even if that draft pick turns out to be #1, but you've been in the tax three out of five years, it gets sent down to #30.  The CBA really doesn't want teams camping above that second apron.

[Vermont Green]

I agree there are no financial reasons for staying below the 2nd apron this season.

I believe there are more harsh penalties if a club gets into a repeater 2nd apron offender status (over 2nd apron 3 out of 5 yrs).

Maybe Wyc just doesn't want to start the repeater clock.

Another poster -- keevsnick? -- pointed this out, but the second apron repeated tax and the restrictions on trading you first rounder seven years out don't go into effect until 2025.

Just to be clear here: There is no repeater tax for the 2nd apron, in that being over the 2nd apron multiple times doesn't in any way change the financial penalty you pay. The repeater tax is for just being over the normal luxury tax line.

But what i think you're referring to is the 2nd apron draft pick penalty. Being over the 2nd apron starting in 24-25 freezes your draft pick 7 years out (so in 32' for the year 24-25). Following that year if a team is over the 2nd apron 2 or more of the next 4 years their frozen pick gets sent to the back of the draft. But if they over fewer than 2 of the next 4 their pick gets un-frozen and no penalty is applied to the previously frozen pick.

What this means, i think, is if you want to avoid the draft pick penalty you could be over the 2nd apron two straight years, then under the next three. But your pick's would still be during that period.

By "freeze" you mean can't trade?  If this is the case (this is consistent with what I have seen elsewhere), I would hope the Celtics would not pass on a good trade or FA, that put them a little over the second apron, just because they wouldn't be able to trade a first round pick 7 years in the future.  That would make no sense to me.

Well, it's not *just* a trade restriction.  Even if that draft pick turns out to be #1, but you've been in the tax three out of five years, it gets sent down to #30.  The CBA really doesn't want teams camping above that second apron.

Yes, I saw that as I read the post again.  That is a tough penalty, but how bad do you think the Celtics will be in 7 years?  Probably not a lottery team but if a team does severely mismanage, stays in the second apron for multiple seasons for players that get injured or turn out to be bad, this is going to make rebuilding really hard, at least through the draft.

I wonder if any team will win a title without being over the second apron.  I don't think any team under the tax has won a title.  But that still starts in 2024-25, right?  So we can be over this season without having the draft pick penalties imposed?  We still lose the MLE and have some other restriction on incoming salary in trades, but the draft stuff starts next season?

[Roy H.]

The GW trade hasn't been made official yet.  There's probably no rush for anybody but Williams, who has presumably encased himself in a protective bubble.

But, until official, we can always expand the trade!  Fun!

My thought of the day:

BOS trades:  GW ($6.15m outgoing) + Kornet + Champagnie

BOS receives:  Larry Nance Jr.

The Pelicans could take on the second rounders we were originally meant to receive.  It also gets them out of the luxury tax.

[Celtics2021]

The GW trade hasn't been made official yet.  There's probably no rush for anybody but Williams, who has presumably encased himself in a protective bubble.

But, until official, we can always expand the trade!  Fun!

My thought of the day:

BOS trades:  GW ($6.15m outgoing) + Kornet + Champagnie

BOS receives:  Larry Nance Jr.

The Pelicans could take on the second rounders we were originally meant to receive.  It also gets them out of the luxury tax.

In the it’s not our money department, we could add Brogdon to your package and instead of going to New Orleans for Nance, we could get Philly out of the tax (and provide them a large exception) for Tobias Harris.

Then we could later turn around and trade Harris and picks to Portland for Lillard once Tatum convinces Dame that Boston is worth coming to and convinces management that it should increase payroll by $20 million.

Similar ideas exist for Siakam.

[cman88]

I wish we got more in return for Grant williams and personally I would've kept him for $13.5 million and figured out what to do with him last season.

in a bubble though, teams generally don't pay $13.5million to their 4th big. Timelord/KP/Horford are all ahead of him on the depth chart. the only issue is they all have injury issues and in Horfords case needs to be kept fresh.

So, i think the celtics looked at it as is Grant Williams worth going into the 2nd apron and basically $40million in salary for what his contributions would be? Or can Brisett replace what Grant gave us and maybe give Hauser more run.

I think alot of times Celtics fans tend to overrate their role players when they leave...

[Moranis]

Another asset that won't be used.

[Celtics4ever]

Another asset that won't be used.

I think this is an accurate assessment.

[keevsnick]

Another asset that won't be used.

I think this is an accurate assessment.

I get being pessimistic about TPE's and asset use, but it feels like in the past the Celtics have actually ended up using TPE's a fair amount.

Granted, this one is small, and they mostly did the deal to get the 2nd rounders, but it wouldn't surprise me if they used it for something.

Edit: The Celtics I don't think could use the TPE next summer, its an apron restriction that kicks in during cap year 24-25. But they could use it anytime before the official start of the next league year. Including after the seaosn but before the league calendar turns over.

[Moranis]

Another asset that won't be used.

I think this is an accurate assessment.

I get being pessimistic about TPE's and asset use, but it feels like in the past the Celtics have actually ended up using TPE's a fair amount.

Granted, this one is small, and they mostly did the deal to get the 2nd rounders, but it wouldn't surprise me if they used it for something.

Edit: The Celtics I don't think could use the TPE next summer, its an apron restriction that kicks in during cap year 24-25. But they could use it anytime before the official start of the next league year. Including after the seaosn but before the league calendar turns over.

Sure, but they won't.

[ozgod]

double post