How much should we worry about hurt feelings?

[jambr380]

How much does a vet min count against the cap? If the Cs have one or two PGs wanting to come here, then they might take whatever they can get for Pritchard since his cap hit might be the thing that just puts them over the 2nd apron. He's a decent player, but not somebody you desperately need to keep.

Brogdon we need to figure out. I think we probably keep him now since the best offer that was out there before was Morris and #30. Brogdon is a very good, productive player, and we will need that production without Smart. Before Porzingis, I was thinking a Brogdon for Collins swap might be beneficial, but it appears I was wrong about Collins' value...not that Brogdon's is all that much better.

[BitterJim]

How much does a vet min count against the cap? If the Cs have one or two PGs wanting to come here, then they might take whatever they can get for Pritchard since his cap hit might be the thing that just puts them over the 2nd apron. He's a decent player, but not somebody you desperately need to keep.

Brogdon we need to figure out. I think we probably keep him now since the best offer that was out there before was Morris and #30. Brogdon is a very good, productive player, and we will need that production without Smart. Before Porzingis, I was thinking a Brogdon for Collins swap might be beneficial, but it appears I was wrong about Collins' value...not that Brogdon's is all that much better.

It depends on the contract and years of service. The amount increases for every additional year of service (up to 10), but for vets with 3 or more years of service that sign a 1 year vet min contract the cap hit is equal to that of a 2 year vet (which can make a big difference). I don't know this year's numbers of the top of my head, but these are the 2022-23 numbers for reference (the 8 year vet number has a mistake on Larry Coon's site and I left it in, it's enough to get the idea):
0   $1,017,781
1   $1,637,966
2   $1,836,090
3   $1,902,133
4   $1,968,175
5   $2,133,278
6   $2,298,385
7   $2,463,490
8   $2,628,5978
9   $2,641,682
10+   $2,905,851

[jambr380]

How much does a vet min count against the cap? If the Cs have one or two PGs wanting to come here, then they might take whatever they can get for Pritchard since his cap hit might be the thing that just puts them over the 2nd apron. He's a decent player, but not somebody you desperately need to keep.

Brogdon we need to figure out. I think we probably keep him now since the best offer that was out there before was Morris and #30. Brogdon is a very good, productive player, and we will need that production without Smart. Before Porzingis, I was thinking a Brogdon for Collins swap might be beneficial, but it appears I was wrong about Collins' value...not that Brogdon's is all that much better.

It depends on the contract and years of service. The amount increases for every additional year of service (up to 10), but for vets with 3 or more years of service that sign a 1 year vet min contract the cap hit is equal to that of a 2 year vet (which can make a big difference). I don't know this year's numbers of the top of my head, but these are the 2022-23 numbers for reference (the 8 year vet number has a mistake on Larry Coon's site and I left it in, it's enough to get the idea):
0   $1,017,781
1   $1,637,966
2   $1,836,090
3   $1,902,133
4   $1,968,175
5   $2,133,278
6   $2,298,385
7   $2,463,490
8   $2,628,5978
9   $2,641,682
10+   $2,905,851

Thanks and tp - Yeah, I thought the cap hit was around $2M, so even better (if only slightly).

I am not desperate to get rid of Pritchard, but I think we can get a comparable player (role and production) on the vet min without having to worry about him being upset. The fact that we might get a 2nd rounder or two, as well as ensuring we remain under the 2nd apron are nice bonuses.

[obnoxiousmime]

Like some random executive said in one of those "anonymous exec opinions" Steve Bulpett Heavy.com articles,  Pritchard just seems to be wired differently. 27th overall picks that aren't obvious starters usually don't publicly demand trades. He was a four-year college guy though, and it's understandable that he wouldn't be as patient as a 3rd year guy that's only 22. Pritchard is already 25.

The other problem is the Celtics simply don't have strong leadership. The Joe thing doesn't need to be recounted here, but when you have a coach that is clearly in over his head the players are going to feel empowered to complain. This extends to the person that hired Ime and Joe, fairly or unfairly, in Stevens (who was also oddly "fired/promoted" two years ago). If you're walking around like Smart and thinking, "this guy doesn't have a clue and it ruined our season," it's going to be frustrating when you're dealt and all of a sudden the narrative is you lost a step on defense and didn't defer to the Jays enough on offense.

That's the other part of the problem. Because our best two (or three if you count White) players don't seem to want the leadership role, the team has had to empower guys like Horford, Smart, and Brogdon. Then when the team doesn't do well, of course they are in trade rumors because those are the contracts that are available to deal. It would be one thing if the stars played exceptionally and the role players just failed to support them, but that wasn't the case. The stars were inconsistent and it affected everybody's roles going down the roster. All of a sudden Smart is taking shots because Brown and Tatum for whatever reason are having one of their non-aggressive nights.

Brogdon's probably thinking, "why do I get blamed when I played hurt and it wasn't even a leg injury?" Sure, his loss hurt but he was the sixth man. It's not like we lost a starter and a rotation guy in Oladipo and Herro.

[gouki88]

I think we should keep both. White and Brogdon should both hover between 28-32MPG. Leaves room for Pritchard to play ~15 or so a night, which we know he can do and can help in doing so from his first two seasons.

[BitterJim]

How much does a vet min count against the cap? If the Cs have one or two PGs wanting to come here, then they might take whatever they can get for Pritchard since his cap hit might be the thing that just puts them over the 2nd apron. He's a decent player, but not somebody you desperately need to keep.

Brogdon we need to figure out. I think we probably keep him now since the best offer that was out there before was Morris and #30. Brogdon is a very good, productive player, and we will need that production without Smart. Before Porzingis, I was thinking a Brogdon for Collins swap might be beneficial, but it appears I was wrong about Collins' value...not that Brogdon's is all that much better.

It depends on the contract and years of service. The amount increases for every additional year of service (up to 10), but for vets with 3 or more years of service that sign a 1 year vet min contract the cap hit is equal to that of a 2 year vet (which can make a big difference). I don't know this year's numbers of the top of my head, but these are the 2022-23 numbers for reference (the 8 year vet number has a mistake on Larry Coon's site and I left it in, it's enough to get the idea):
0   $1,017,781
1   $1,637,966
2   $1,836,090
3   $1,902,133
4   $1,968,175
5   $2,133,278
6   $2,298,385
7   $2,463,490
8   $2,628,5978
9   $2,641,682
10+   $2,905,851

Thanks and tp - Yeah, I thought the cap hit was around $2M, so even better (if only slightly).

I am not desperate to get rid of Pritchard, but I think we can get a comparable player (role and production) on the vet min without having to worry about him being upset. The fact that we might get a 2nd rounder or two, as well as ensuring we remain under the 2nd apron are nice bonuses.

If we're going to try and stay under the 2nd apron and we find a vet PG that's about as good as/better than Pritchard that would be a great move. It could potentially allow us to use part of (or most of) the TPMLE (or sign a 15th player, but I don't think that would be worth it)

[vjcsmoke]

Brogdan is gonna be a professional.  Besides with Smart leaving, he knows his minutes will go up, he has just gotta stay patient and get healthy.

Pritchard is the guy to watch out for.  It feels like he's starting to run out of patence.  But he hasn't shown enough for anyone to believe he could be the lead guard for the Celtics.

So what do you do with him?  He was a 1st rounder but he's never shown the athleticism to hang against another team's #1 guard.

If there's an opportunity to trade Pritchard for a useful veteran piece, I'd actually consider it.  Let Davison be the developmental guard.

Here's an article discussing possible trade returns for Pritchard: https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/top-stories/exploring-potential-payton-pritchard-trades#gid=ci02c126a1900027a7&pid=usatsi_20697294

[SparzWizard]

I'd let PP build his value first and then ship him out on the February trade deadline. Next thing u know, fans don't wanna ship him out cuz his value is so good he can hang with our regular rotations haha.

C's still need a true ballhandler, a backup wing, and backup big in case one, two, or three of Horford, Timelord, and Porzingis are out.

[tenn_smoothie]

I have never understood this desire to trade Brogdon. He was one of our most consistent guys this year, brought much needed ball movement and good decision making to a team short on both. All that as well as being a model team player.

Is his injury a permanent condition or will he heal up and be ok by, say, mid-season at the worst.
I don't like the fact that he was publicly shopped around, even if it came from the Clippers or whoever.
I remember how Danny did the same to Ray Allen and how badly that ended.
Then, the reputation we got from pushing Isaiah Thomas out the door after his injury became worse by his willingness to play in pain.
Brogdon did everything he was asked to do and then some. And everyone was full of praise during most of the season. What happened ?

[tenn_smoothie]

I think we should keep both. White and Brogdon should both hover between 28-32MPG. Leaves room for Pritchard to play ~15 or so a night, which we know he can do and can help in doing so from his first two seasons.

Agreed. Brogdon and White were our two best facilitators on offense.
Pritchard has never been given regular minutes that would allow him to develop some consistency.

[PAOBoston]

I have never understood this desire to trade Brogdon. He was one of our most consistent guys this year, brought much needed ball movement and good decision making to a team short on both. All that as well as being a model team player.

Is his injury a permanent condition or will he heal up and be ok by, say, mid-season at the worst.
I don't like the fact that he was publicly shopped around, even if it came from the Clippers or whoever.
I remember how Danny did the same to Ray Allen and how badly that ended.
Then, the reputation we got from pushing Isaiah Thomas out the door after his injury became worse by his willingness to play in pain.
Brogdon did everything he was asked to do and then some. And everyone was full of praise during most of the season. What happened ?

The new CBA happened

[Celtics2021]

I have never understood this desire to trade Brogdon. He was one of our most consistent guys this year, brought much needed ball movement and good decision making to a team short on both. All that as well as being a model team player.

Is his injury a permanent condition or will he heal up and be ok by, say, mid-season at the worst.
I don't like the fact that he was publicly shopped around, even if it came from the Clippers or whoever.
I remember how Danny did the same to Ray Allen and how badly that ended.
Then, the reputation we got from pushing Isaiah Thomas out the door after his injury became worse by his willingness to play in pain.
Brogdon did everything he was asked to do and then some. And everyone was full of praise during most of the season. What happened ?

The new CBA happened

That’s true to a point, but we also added something like $8 million salary with the Porzingis trade.  If we’re concerned about the new cap rules, maybe adding such a high-priced player wasn’t the best idea.

(To be clear, I like Porzingis.  I just think if the Celtics are going to make such an aggressive move in the first year of the CBA, getting overly concerned about the second apron is going to undercut the benefits of that trade.)

[SHAQATTACK]

Ex girl friends never did 

[ozgod]

Jared Weiss thinks that we should worry a lot:

But the Brogdon situation could be trepidatious. A year ago, he green-lit a deal to the Celtics for a chance to win a title, played a crucial role in their run, and then got hurt. He was expecting to return to the team but it was hardly a surprise when they attempted to trade him, considering the rumors swirling for weeks. Once the trade gets out and the team’s willingness to part with you is confirmed, it’s tough to rebuild that bridge from the ashes.

That’s especially after he sacrificed a starting and typically closing spot to join the Celtics. ...

... Tagging on a first-rounder would help send Brogdon to a team weary about his injury history who can supply either a dribble-penetrating guard or a veteran wing who can replace Grant Williams. Boston really needs to keep Brogdon, but the cat’s out of the bag.

And that’s before even getting to Payton Pritchard.

The fourth-year guard, who already turns 26 in January as he finishes off his rookie contract, no longer has the luxury of time to earn himself a big deal. Pritchard will be entering his prime come restricted free agency and if he gets a four-year deal, that’s potentially the best contract he’ll get in his career. He was clear about wanting a fresh start elsewhere to get real minutes throughout the past season and his teammates — primarily Smart, of all people — were supportive of that desire publicly. It’s rare teammates are hinting at a player deserving more and saying he is auditioning for the rest of the league, but everyone could see how unfair last year was to Pritchard after what he did in the finals run.

So it’s going to take some convincing to make him comfortable with staying in Boston after anticipating an offseason trade for months. If he is the primary backup point guard, the case can be made he’ll get a similar rotation spot to most other places he could be moved. At this point, Pritchard has to do what’s best for himself and secure the bag. The public will often glorify championships and presume role players would love to just get a ring, but it’s different when you have a narrow window to make life-changing money.

https://theathletic.com/4640423/2023/06/26/celtics-nba-free-agency-marcus-smart-kristaps-porzingis/?source=emp_shared_article

I'm not as worried as Weiss is.  I think that Brogdon is a professional, and I don't think Pritchard has any leverage to make waves.

I don't think we should, in this business players get traded all the time, and they leave of their own volition all the time. And Brogdon's been moved a few times. As fans it's easy to say that players should be inured to it - we're not the ones moving after all. But human beings are more than just numbers on a spreadsheet - they do have feelings, and you never know how they will react. Kind of like getting fired from a job - it's "just business" but it can hurt. But if he is hurt, and he decides he wants to leave, sulking isn't going to be a good response. Play well and increase your value and your leverage.

As for Payton, he's too little of a fish for any sulking to affect us. And it would be counterproductive for him. But humans gonna be humans 

[Kernewek]

I think this is concern-trolling by Weiss.  It’s just as possible (I think likely) that Brogdon asked for a trade elsewhere if he couldn’t get a bigger role here.  With Smart traded, a larger role is possible.

Meanwhile, Pritchard has a rotation spot in front of him if he can earn it, although I do think the Celtics will continue to look to move him if the right deal presents itself.

100% - we're in the post-draft, pre-free agency dead zone for NBA journalism. Nearly everything you read now is stuff that wouldn't be worth writing if there was anything actually worth writing about instead.

Personally, I'm more concerned about how our team is going to look when Kristaps, Brogdon, and Timelord all inevitably wind up in street clothes.