Jaylen Brown Supermax

[Donoghus]

So on this forum, we have two people that are very upset by Wyc (even willing to call him cheap), and mostly everyone else seems fine with them?

One thing I can guarantee:  neither Moranis nor I are particularly concerned about other people's wrong-minded opinions, haha. We're not going to be convinced by the "everybody else thinks it's cool" argument.

FWIW I don't think Wyc is "cheap," but he certainly isn't as big a spender as I would like given the market and team success. Partly that's because he's not as purely rich as some owners and doesn't own the building the c's play in.

I'd like to know what Wyc's actual net worth is.  He's been estimated at $400 million for about 15 years now, which would make him perhaps the world's worst businessman.

Divorces are expensive. 

[keevsnick]

So on this forum, we have two people that are very upset by Wyc (even willing to call him cheap), and mostly everyone else seems fine with them?

One thing I can guarantee:  neither Moranis nor I are particularly concerned about other people's wrong-minded opinions, haha. We're not going to be convinced by the "everybody else thinks it's cool" argument.

FWIW I don't think Wyc is "cheap," but he certainly isn't as big a spender as I would like given the market and team success. Partly that's because he's not as purely rich as some owners and doesn't own the building the c's play in.

I'd like to know what Wyc's actual net worth is.  He's been estimated at $400 million for about 15 years now, which would make him perhaps the world's worst businessman.

Ya that's fair enough. Everything you see says 400-500 million, but that's been the case for a while. You'd think it would have increased for no other reason than than profit he makes off the Celtics.

My point was more that he's not Steve Balmer type rich. But i guess very few are.

[Roy H.]

So on this forum, we have two people that are very upset by Wyc (even willing to call him cheap), and mostly everyone else seems fine with them?

One thing I can guarantee:  neither Moranis nor I are particularly concerned about other people's wrong-minded opinions, haha. We're not going to be convinced by the "everybody else thinks it's cool" argument.

FWIW I don't think Wyc is "cheap," but he certainly isn't as big a spender as I would like given the market and team success. Partly that's because he's not as purely rich as some owners and doesn't own the building the c's play in.

I'd like to know what Wyc's actual net worth is.  He's been estimated at $400 million for about 15 years now, which would make him perhaps the world's worst businessman.

Divorces are expensive. 

And yet, he got engaged to his current wife in December 2016 and they got married at a chapel in Vegas in January 2017!  Wyc's a romantic, apparently.  I hope he had time to negotiate a prenup!

[Roy H.]

Brad on Jaylen: “It’s been all good discussion. We want Jaylen to be here for a long, long time and we've made that clear. We're looking forward to all sitting down and we have time. I probably shouldn't say anything else, but I feel optimistic.”

[green_bballers13]

Brad on Jaylen: “It’s been all good discussion. We want Jaylen to be here for a long, long time and we've made that clear. We're looking forward to all sitting down and we have time. I probably shouldn't say anything else, but I feel optimistic.”

Awesome. I wouldn't say there's anything new here, but its good to see that our GM values our 2nd Team All NBA player. It would be annoying if he wanted to trade Jaylen for cents on the dollar.

[Moranis]

Brad on Jaylen: “It’s been all good discussion. We want Jaylen to be here for a long, long time and we've made that clear. We're looking forward to all sitting down and we have time. I probably shouldn't say anything else, but I feel optimistic.”

Awesome. I wouldn't say there's anything new here, but its good to see that our GM values our 2nd Team All NBA player. It would be annoying if he wanted to trade Jaylen for cents on the dollar.

well even if he was actively trying to trade him, that would still be his public response.

[Moranis]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

[tonydelk]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

[cman88]

So per MassLive the holdup is Brown wants a trade kicker AND 5th year option.

My guess would be Celtics don't want both.

[Moranis]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

It's not about pure assets. It's also about personalities and chemistry. Addition by subtraction isn't a thing when you are talking about pure assets, but it is when you are talking about team-building and people.

[green_bballers13]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

Boston is getting two second-round picks from the Grant Williams trade and creating an approximately $6.3 million traded player exception (TPE).

So, you've decided that they won't use the TPE and they won't draft or trade two second round picks (maybe the Celtics forfeit those picks).

What return did you want for Grant Williams? I think he's the type of player that has a hard time getting into a playoff game, even with old/injured players in front of him.

[Moranis]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

Boston is getting two second-round picks from the Grant Williams trade and creating an approximately $6.3 million traded player exception (TPE).

So, you've decided that they won't use the TPE and they won't draft or trade two second round picks (maybe the Celtics forfeit those picks).

What return did you want for Grant Williams? I think he's the type of player that has a hard time getting into a playoff game, even with old/injured players in front of him.

2nd round picks are fine, but the team just acquired 6 of them and they will probably use most of them to dump salary (since they do that a lot).

I'd have signed Grant for 13 million a year.  Very reasonable deal.  You can see my reasoning in this chain, but essentially he is worth that contract and fills a need.  next summer when the 2nd apron penalties kick in and salary needs to be moved, I wouldn't just assume Grant would have been the guy to move, but if so I suspect they'd have been able to do a similar deal and end up with a much larger tpe.

[green_bballers13]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

Boston is getting two second-round picks from the Grant Williams trade and creating an approximately $6.3 million traded player exception (TPE).

So, you've decided that they won't use the TPE and they won't draft or trade two second round picks (maybe the Celtics forfeit those picks).

What return did you want for Grant Williams? I think he's the type of player that has a hard time getting into a playoff game, even with old/injured players in front of him.

2nd round picks are fine, but the team just acquired 6 of them and they will probably use most of them to dump salary (since they do that a lot).

I'd have signed Grant for 13 million a year.  Very reasonable deal.  You can see my reasoning in this chain, but essentially he is worth that contract and fills a need.  next summer when the 2nd apron penalties kick in and salary needs to be moved, I wouldn't just assume Grant would have been the guy to move, but if so I suspect they'd have been able to do a similar deal and end up with a much larger tpe.

I think the difference here is that a) you value Grant more than Brad and b) you value second round picks less than Brad.

With that viewpoint, it makes sense that you're upset that we traded Grant Williams. I was confused when you said that we wasted the asset, and now I'm caught up.

I think that Grant has been overrated, and a guy like Oshae Brisett can do many of those same things for cheaper. Brisett is definitely not a key cog to a championship team, but neither is Grant.

[obnoxiousmime]

Put another way, the only reason Grant Williams isn't currently on the team is because Boston didn't want to go into the 2nd apron.  Grant didn't sign some massive contract.  He didn't ask for anything unreasonable. He was a rotation player that knew his role and was seemingly well liked by teammates.  He provides a role not otherwise on the team.  He isn't here because ownership is cheap.  That is my complaint.  Cheapness wasted yet another asset.  Just like cheapness wasted several assets last year.  All just continuing the pattern long established by this ownership group.

Where did you read that he was well liked by his teammates? I haven't seen that.

It was stated he was Tatum's best friend on the team so there's that at least.

Also, for the new CBA the only reason to go over the 2nd apron IMO is if the player is a difference maker and will put you over the top to win a chip.  I feel ownership will go over the 2nd apron for the right player.  A role player playing 15-20 minutes a game at full strength is not a player you go over the 2nd apron for.

The penalties of the second apron don't really apply until next year, so there's no good reason not to attempt to upgrade the roster, even if that's only with using the TPE on a one year rental.

Yes. With Grant Williams you can make the case you don't want the long-term money you'd have to move next summer to get under the 2nd apron, hence the reason not to match. But there is literally no reason not to go above the 2nd apron this year on an expiring player (except higher tax).

ah but who says he'd be the guy you'd move?  Maybe it is Brogdon or Rob or White or the Zinger or Brown.  You don't waste the asset now on some future concern that may never come to be, especially when Grant signed a very reasonable deal.  It isn't like it is 20 million a year.

Penalties don't start until next year but it's the repeater penalty they need to be careful of.  Once the 3 contracts of Jaylen, Tatum and Zinger are on the books that's going to be a lot of money tied to 3 players.  Especially when Tatum's supermax kicks in.  They need to delay the 2nd apron when they can unless it's a player that will take them over the top.  Grant is not that type of player.

again, who is to say that Grant would be the problematic salary.  Maybe Brogdon gets hurt again and he is the guy that gets moved. Maybe Brown doesnt work out and a great trade comes along (reducing the salary of that slot).  Once you lose an asset it is gone.  The Celtics have lost the Grant Williams asset. It isn't coming back.  There aren't really any penalties this year, except more tax. Pay the tax, go for the title, and worry about the 2nd apron next summer when the penalties are much greater.

Boston is getting two second-round picks from the Grant Williams trade and creating an approximately $6.3 million traded player exception (TPE).

So, you've decided that they won't use the TPE and they won't draft or trade two second round picks (maybe the Celtics forfeit those picks).

What return did you want for Grant Williams? I think he's the type of player that has a hard time getting into a playoff game, even with old/injured players in front of him.

2nd round picks are fine, but the team just acquired 6 of them and they will probably use most of them to dump salary (since they do that a lot).

I'd have signed Grant for 13 million a year.  Very reasonable deal.  You can see my reasoning in this chain, but essentially he is worth that contract and fills a need.  next summer when the 2nd apron penalties kick in and salary needs to be moved, I wouldn't just assume Grant would have been the guy to move, but if so I suspect they'd have been able to do a similar deal and end up with a much larger tpe.

I think the difference here is that a) you value Grant more than Brad and b) you value second round picks less than Brad.

With that viewpoint, it makes sense that you're upset that we traded Grant Williams. I was confused when you said that we wasted the asset, and now I'm caught up.

I think that Grant has been overrated, and a guy like Oshae Brisett can do many of those same things for cheaper. Brisett is definitely not a key cog to a championship team, but neither is Grant.

What same things? Brissett is more like a wing than a power forward/small ball 5. Also, he's not a good 3 pt. shooter. I don't think he's a Grant replacement at all.