Why does everyone say getting Zinger means it's a given G Will is gone?

[Yuckabuck33]

People are assuming they will want to stay below the 2nd apron (134% of the cap) which this year is about 179 million. After adding salary in the Smart/KP trade its basically impossible to stay below that number and bring back Grant as the team is currently constructed.

Now of course its debatable whether they will or should stay below the 2nd apron. The new CBA has some pretty steep team building penalties for being over that apron, but most of those don't kick in this coming year so there's no reason other than tax money why they can't spend over that limit this year. Buuuut those penalties will kick in the year after that, so it may very well be better not to sign  up more long term salary like grant if you plan on paying brown/tatum/KP. If you do re-sign Grant there's a decent chance you just have to dump him in a year to get below the 2nd apron.

But right now it just so hard to know what they plan. Maybe they move Brogdon and open up money, maybe they don't care about the 2nd apron, maybe they bring Grant back on a good contract and trade him in a year for a pick. Who knows.

I think the main reason people think he's gone is Joe didn't really play him last year and with three rotation bigs he seems to have even less of a role.

Thank you! TP! Really didn't know all this.. knew a bunch about the 2nd apron which made me look cool to my friends but not to this degree lol. I guess in my opinion we should keep him if the penalties won't be this year... and kick the can down the road to next year and if anything trade him for pics etc. if needed. Maybe this will be a good test of our owners if they will pay the tax--- truth is, I think Wyc is not a billionaire and maybe cannot pay the tax like other owners can, but could be wrong on that.

Ya basically a lot of this depends on Wyc's willingness to spend and the contract Grant ends up getting. If he's making 18 million year 1, I'd let him go. If its 13 million year 1 I'd re-sign him. Its tough not knowing what the offer will be.

If we can't get anything better I'd give the 18M! It ain't my money, plus it isn't cheap to go to a Cs game (they raise the prices to make up for their costs, I'd guess). But yeah, he isn't worth 18.. but I mean if it is that or you get nothing in return, I think I'd do it and try and trade him next year if (or when) we need to.

The problem is if you pay him $18 million this year, you're probably going to have to give up draft picks to dump him next year.

$18 million for a guy who averages 8/5 is just a wild waste of resources in my opinion.  The only way it would make sense is $18 million this year, with a team option / non-guaranteed salary next year.

But with how salaries have skyrocketed etc... isn't $18M basically what $10M used to be? Would we really need to give anything up to get rid of him in a year? You may be right I have no idea.. but if we are trying to win a title shouldn't we match if it is $18M when we will get nothing close to as good as him otherwise? I 1000% percent agree he is worth nowhere near that much money, just for the record.

That's the question, I guess.  Can we get something close to him for less?

Grant is an 8/5 guy on 40% 3PT% with good defense.

Is it better to spend $18 million on him, or $2 million on JaMychal Green?

My counter would be that JaMycha is on the downswing of his career (or logically I would think so). Plus, with Grant, didn't our incompetent/unqualified coach refuse to play him for some unknown reason? It probably would have helped keep our starters minutes down had we played him more... the conspiracy theorist in me thinks we kept his minutes/numbers down to try and resign him cheap... no other reason I can think of on why we wouldn't have played him more this year.

Is Grant in the upswing of his career?  He regressed slightly last season, if anything.

Regressed? Or was not used properly by our moron incompetent coach. He was pretty important at the start of the season.

[Roy H.]

People are assuming they will want to stay below the 2nd apron (134% of the cap) which this year is about 179 million. After adding salary in the Smart/KP trade its basically impossible to stay below that number and bring back Grant as the team is currently constructed.

Now of course its debatable whether they will or should stay below the 2nd apron. The new CBA has some pretty steep team building penalties for being over that apron, but most of those don't kick in this coming year so there's no reason other than tax money why they can't spend over that limit this year. Buuuut those penalties will kick in the year after that, so it may very well be better not to sign  up more long term salary like grant if you plan on paying brown/tatum/KP. If you do re-sign Grant there's a decent chance you just have to dump him in a year to get below the 2nd apron.

But right now it just so hard to know what they plan. Maybe they move Brogdon and open up money, maybe they don't care about the 2nd apron, maybe they bring Grant back on a good contract and trade him in a year for a pick. Who knows.

I think the main reason people think he's gone is Joe didn't really play him last year and with three rotation bigs he seems to have even less of a role.

Thank you! TP! Really didn't know all this.. knew a bunch about the 2nd apron which made me look cool to my friends but not to this degree lol. I guess in my opinion we should keep him if the penalties won't be this year... and kick the can down the road to next year and if anything trade him for pics etc. if needed. Maybe this will be a good test of our owners if they will pay the tax--- truth is, I think Wyc is not a billionaire and maybe cannot pay the tax like other owners can, but could be wrong on that.

Ya basically a lot of this depends on Wyc's willingness to spend and the contract Grant ends up getting. If he's making 18 million year 1, I'd let him go. If its 13 million year 1 I'd re-sign him. Its tough not knowing what the offer will be.

If we can't get anything better I'd give the 18M! It ain't my money, plus it isn't cheap to go to a Cs game (they raise the prices to make up for their costs, I'd guess). But yeah, he isn't worth 18.. but I mean if it is that or you get nothing in return, I think I'd do it and try and trade him next year if (or when) we need to.

The problem is if you pay him $18 million this year, you're probably going to have to give up draft picks to dump him next year.

$18 million for a guy who averages 8/5 is just a wild waste of resources in my opinion.  The only way it would make sense is $18 million this year, with a team option / non-guaranteed salary next year.

But with how salaries have skyrocketed etc... isn't $18M basically what $10M used to be? Would we really need to give anything up to get rid of him in a year? You may be right I have no idea.. but if we are trying to win a title shouldn't we match if it is $18M when we will get nothing close to as good as him otherwise? I 1000% percent agree he is worth nowhere near that much money, just for the record.

That's the question, I guess.  Can we get something close to him for less?

Grant is an 8/5 guy on 40% 3PT% with good defense.

Is it better to spend $18 million on him, or $2 million on JaMychal Green?

My counter would be that JaMycha is on the downswing of his career (or logically I would think so). Plus, with Grant, didn't our incompetent/unqualified coach refuse to play him for some unknown reason? It probably would have helped keep our starters minutes down had we played him more... the conspiracy theorist in me thinks we kept his minutes/numbers down to try and resign him cheap... no other reason I can think of on why we wouldn't have played him more this year.

Is Grant in the upswing of his career?  He regressed slightly last season, if anything.

Regressed? Or was not used properly by our moron incompetent coach. He was pretty important at the start of the season.

Yes, regressed.  And, we still have the same coach, who gave him more minutes than Ime did.

[goCeltics]

Grant is like a 15 pts per 100 possessions guy, can't see a team ponying up big salary, you watch no one will offer above $15 million. He is a nice role player, no more.

[keevsnick]

I'm guessing since all the experts are saying that, there's a good reason... but what is it? CBA stuff with the second apron?

I would love to keep Grant Williams but he's gonna be an RFA.  So I dunno teams can easily make him an offer that the Celtics can't match if they don't want to get heavily into the luxury tax.

The Celtics aren't really as deep into the tax right now as people think. Last year they were 26 million over the tax with a 176 million dollar payroll, or about 1.173x the luxury tax line of 150 million. If they stayed the same raw amount of 26 million over next year they'd have a 191 million dollar payroll against a 165 million tax line. If they stayed proportionally over by the same amount it would be 1.173 x 165 for a 194 million payroll. For comparison right now they have a 173 million dollar payroll wrapped up in 11 guys. Most people seem to assume they are going to stay below the 182 million dollar second apron, and they might. But that would actually result in a luxury tax payment well below what they were willing to pay last year.

They COULD bring back Grant on a deal starting at like 15 million then fill out the roster with minimums and still pay a smaller tax than they did last year (thanks in large part to Horford salary dropping from 26 million last year to 10 this year).

Of course none of that factors in the utility of getting under the 2nd apron in the 24-25 season and beyond which obviously gets harder the more salary you add this year.

[Roy H.]

I'm curious, who are the other 8/5 guys making $15 million per season?  Are those considered good or bad contracts?

[gouki88]

I'm curious, who are the other 8/5 guys making $15 million per season?  Are those considered good or bad contracts?

Is Torrey Craig looking at a $15m/season deal? Thomas Bryant? Eubanks?

Royce O'Neale is paid less than $10m/season. Larry Nance is on ~$10m/season. Boucher is similar.

These guys are all similar-ish. Between 6-10PPG, 4-6RPG, and varying levels of versatility and defensive capability. None would dream of $15m a season

[Celtics4ever]

Is Grant even a top 25 free agent this year?   

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/37880869/nba-free-agency-2023-ranking-top-25-players-available

Didn't make the list on ESPN

https://hoopshype.com/lists/2023-nba-free-agent-rankings-top-players-available-summer/

28th on hoopshype list

I think a few of these guys will make 10 million a year and are better value quite frankly than Grant.

[celts55]

I can’t see them paying big money for a guy who received numerous DNP coaches decision during the playoffs. I’m guessing Mazz isn’t sold on him.

[wdleehi]

I am curious to see if there is a team out there willing to spend big money to bring in Grant.   I know there are teams with Cap space interested, but are they 18 million interested?   15 million interested?

Or are they "Celtics will never go over the 2nd apron" interested.

[Celtics2021]

I'm curious, who are the other 8/5 guys making $15 million per season?  Are those considered good or bad contracts?

Is Torrey Craig looking at a $15m/season deal? Thomas Bryant? Eubanks?

Royce O'Neale is paid less than $10m/season. Larry Nance is on ~$10m/season. Boucher is similar.

These guys are all similar-ish. Between 6-10PPG, 4-6RPG, and varying levels of versatility and defensive capability. None would dream of $15m a season

For what it’s worth, John Hollinger at the Athletic ranks Grant as the 7th best free agent PF, with an expected value of $15.1 million in production next season.  Torrey Craig was the 22nd ranked small forward and worth the minimum salary.  Drew Eubanks was the 9th-ranked center and worth $5 million.

[Roy H.]

I'm curious, who are the other 8/5 guys making $15 million per season?  Are those considered good or bad contracts?

Is Torrey Craig looking at a $15m/season deal? Thomas Bryant? Eubanks?

Royce O'Neale is paid less than $10m/season. Larry Nance is on ~$10m/season. Boucher is similar.

These guys are all similar-ish. Between 6-10PPG, 4-6RPG, and varying levels of versatility and defensive capability. None would dream of $15m a season

For what it’s worth, John Hollinger at the Athletic ranks Grant as the 7th best free agent PF, with an expected value of $15.1 million in production next season.  Torrey Craig was the 22nd ranked small forward and worth the minimum salary.  Drew Eubanks was the 9th-ranked center and worth $5 million.

Pretty much zero, I'd say.

[Roy H.]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanth01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenja01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willigr01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/watanyu01.html

Three of these guys are worth the minimum according to Hollinger; the other is worth $15+ million.

[gouki88]

I'm curious, who are the other 8/5 guys making $15 million per season?  Are those considered good or bad contracts?

Is Torrey Craig looking at a $15m/season deal? Thomas Bryant? Eubanks?

Royce O'Neale is paid less than $10m/season. Larry Nance is on ~$10m/season. Boucher is similar.

These guys are all similar-ish. Between 6-10PPG, 4-6RPG, and varying levels of versatility and defensive capability. None would dream of $15m a season

For what it’s worth, John Hollinger at the Athletic ranks Grant as the 7th best free agent PF, with an expected value of $15.1 million in production next season.  Torrey Craig was the 22nd ranked small forward and worth the minimum salary.  Drew Eubanks was the 9th-ranked center and worth $5 million.

I would be interested to see why Grant is apparently worth so much more than Craig, a near-identical player. The 8 year age gap does not = the difference between a minimum & $15m/season

[Celtics4ever]

For what it’s worth, John Hollinger at the Athletic ranks Grant as the 7th best free agent PF,

But not a top 25 free agent  by any means,   the highest I saw him overall is 28th

It will depend of the market, of course, he can be valuable but may not get the big pay he wanted.

[jambr380]

I would personally like to stay below the 2nd apron. I know it's not my money, but the restrictions suck and there is no reason to go over it to keep a guy like Grant when you can get a similar guy for much much cheaper (like we did with Gallinari last year).

Ideally, somebody gives us a couple of 2nds (or whatever) not to match and we sign a couple of productive vets to fill out the roster. I actually see this as possible since nobody is going to want to pay $15M+/yr for Grant and offering him a more reasonable contract makes it more of a threat that we will match.