Author Topic: Brogdon is Better than Smart  (Read 2823 times)

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Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2023, 01:04:12 PM »

Offline lbgreen33

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I also, think the only reason Brad picked up MB was for the playoffs. We needed more scoring from our bench in the playoffs. We Needed, a knock down shooter in the playoffs.
MB was Not health for the playoffs, he could barley even shoot the ball.
He was a luxury during the regular season, 6th man of the year was great. But, I believe the main reason he came off the bench was to have him available when we needed him most, The Playoffs!!
That didn't happen.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2023, 01:08:06 PM »

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I was listening to an interview with Caitlin Cooper who is a journalist who covers the Indiana Pacers. She is very impressive with her coverage of the Pacers and knowlege of the league. She is known for her excellent breakdowns of Xs and Os and detailed tracking information. She broke down like 1000 passes to prove Haliburton's passing when he jumps is actually more effective and not a liability. Cool stuff.

Anyway, in one of her older interviews, she was talking about Brogdon when the Pacers were looking to trade him after acquiring Haliburton. I believe it was with the Knicks who were interested in Brogdon as an alternative to Brunson if they were unable to get him in FA.

I can't remember all the details she was giving about Brogdon but they were detailed (as usual with Caitlin Cooper) and very good.

One was the comparison between how Hailburton and Brogdon ran the team as a PG. Haliburton plays at a high tempo and is constantly looking to get the ball up the court either with the dribble or the early pass. Brogdon much more methodical. Plays at a slower pace. Haliburton shares and moves the ball around much more. Brogdon likes to hold the ball, make the play, and then give up the ball. Haliburton a more well rounded passer who involves his teammates better in the offense.

Other interesting observations were about Brogdon's creation. This is the part where my memory is weak. When he goes right, he does one thing. When he goes left, he does another thing. I believe it is a pull up jumper left and a drive right. This worked well for Indiana early in Brogdon's time there but as teams scouted him better they worked this out and were able to game-plan against him and force him into lower percentage shots effectively. Brogdon was particularly poor at pull up 3s when he goes left. This was the shot opponents would try to force him to take.

So this created some limitations in terms of him being a prime time go-to scorer which is why ideally he is in a smaller offensive role like he is here in Boston than the 20ppg threat he was Indiana.

Also talked about how Brogdon uses his strength so well on his drives. One of the more prolific drivers in the league for non small speedy guards. Once he gets his shoulder in front of you, you can't get back in the play. He is too strong. Ridiculously strong. What is he, 6-5 230lbs. Guy is a tank. I keep thinking he looks a similar size as Grant Williams when they are out there together.

These were all interesting observations. I enjoyed listening to Caitlin Cooper's interviews. I have listend to about 4-5 in the last week or two. Some newish. Some older. A lot of good information in them. That one on Brogdon was very interesting.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2023, 01:08:22 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Offensive yes, defense no
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2023, 01:12:48 PM »

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I was shocked at how bad Brogdon's defense was in the playoffs.

I knew he struggled against PGs at the point of attack. That was a given. No issue there. He is a big guy. He can't move well enough laterally to cover them. His advantage is in team defense and switching for a big guard like him rather than his man defense at the point of attack.

But I was surprised just how much he struggled to contain wing players like James Harden or Jimmy Butler. Neither are super-athletic wings. Good athletes but not great.

I remember Brogdon back in Milwaukee. He was known as a 3+D guy but Bucks fans would always say he was more of an average to solid defender than a high level defensive SG. He lacked the lateral quickness to be a high end defensive wing.

Even so, Brogdon was much worse for us defensively this past season than he had been earlier in his career for Milwaukee. He is not a solid or even average defensive SG. He is below average defensively there as well as not being able to contain speedy PGs. So he struggles to cover both small guards and wings. Then he is too short covering bigs. So his switching is not nearly as effective as I believed / expected it would be.

Definitely an offensively orientated player now. Offense-only? I don't know. Is that too harsh? But veering in that direction.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2023, 01:27:48 PM »

Offline CelticD

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Agreed. Defensively Smart fell off which is his only claim to heavy minutes and offensively I think Brogdon is a better fit. While I think Smart is the better passer, the Celtics would have to move off ball more to maximize Smart's passing game but they don't do that consistently.

The Celtics are a spot up team that prefers to drive and kick, and so the offense works best when the ball handler has scoring gravity, and that's something Smart does not have.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2023, 01:38:44 PM »

Offline lbgreen33

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Jared Weiss noted that Brogdon had been battling through "golfer's elbow soreness" during the second-round series against the Philadelphia 76ers but "exacerbated the injury by tearing the tendon" while boxing out Miami's Kevin Love as the two jousted for a rebound in Game 1.

I think Brogdon was hurt in the Atlanta series. He looked to be a shell of himself against the Sixers. I don't think it is fair to rate his defensive play in the Playoffs, because we don't know exactly when he first started having issues with his elbow.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2023, 03:22:17 PM »

Offline footey

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I was shocked at how bad Brogdon's defense was in the playoffs.

I knew he struggled against PGs at the point of attack. That was a given. No issue there. He is a big guy. He can't move well enough laterally to cover them. His advantage is in team defense and switching for a big guard like him rather than his man defense at the point of attack.

But I was surprised just how much he struggled to contain wing players like James Harden or Jimmy Butler. Neither are super-athletic wings. Good athletes but not great.

I remember Brogdon back in Milwaukee. He was known as a 3+D guy but Bucks fans would always say he was more of an average to solid defender than a high level defensive SG. He lacked the lateral quickness to be a high end defensive wing.

Even so, Brogdon was much worse for us defensively this past season than he had been earlier in his career for Milwaukee. He is not a solid or even average defensive SG. He is below average defensively there as well as not being able to contain speedy PGs. So he struggles to cover both small guards and wings. Then he is too short covering bigs. So his switching is not nearly as effective as I believed / expected it would be.

Definitely an offensively orientated player now. Offense-only? I don't know. Is that too harsh? But veering in that direction.

You say he was much worse defensively this past season but the defensive metrics say otherwise when compared to Smart. Plus Brogdan had a much higher rate of defensive rebounds.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2023, 04:04:44 PM »

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I was shocked at how bad Brogdon's defense was in the playoffs.

I knew he struggled against PGs at the point of attack. That was a given. No issue there. He is a big guy. He can't move well enough laterally to cover them. His advantage is in team defense and switching for a big guard like him rather than his man defense at the point of attack.

But I was surprised just how much he struggled to contain wing players like James Harden or Jimmy Butler. Neither are super-athletic wings. Good athletes but not great.

I remember Brogdon back in Milwaukee. He was known as a 3+D guy but Bucks fans would always say he was more of an average to solid defender than a high level defensive SG. He lacked the lateral quickness to be a high end defensive wing.

Even so, Brogdon was much worse for us defensively this past season than he had been earlier in his career for Milwaukee. He is not a solid or even average defensive SG. He is below average defensively there as well as not being able to contain speedy PGs. So he struggles to cover both small guards and wings. Then he is too short covering bigs. So his switching is not nearly as effective as I believed / expected it would be.

Definitely an offensively orientated player now. Offense-only? I don't know. Is that too harsh? But veering in that direction.

You say he was much worse defensively this past season but the defensive metrics say otherwise when compared to Smart. Plus Brogdan had a much higher rate of defensive rebounds.

Here are two other defensive metrics:

Defensive EPM = Smart +1.6 Brogdon -0.5
Defensive RAPTOR = Smart +0.7 Brogdon -0.6

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Overall EPM = Smart +1.7 Brogdon +0.2
Overall RAPTOR = Smart +1.4 Brogdon +1.2

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2023, 05:47:22 PM »

Offline footey

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I was shocked at how bad Brogdon's defense was in the playoffs.

I knew he struggled against PGs at the point of attack. That was a given. No issue there. He is a big guy. He can't move well enough laterally to cover them. His advantage is in team defense and switching for a big guard like him rather than his man defense at the point of attack.

But I was surprised just how much he struggled to contain wing players like James Harden or Jimmy Butler. Neither are super-athletic wings. Good athletes but not great.

I remember Brogdon back in Milwaukee. He was known as a 3+D guy but Bucks fans would always say he was more of an average to solid defender than a high level defensive SG. He lacked the lateral quickness to be a high end defensive wing.

Even so, Brogdon was much worse for us defensively this past season than he had been earlier in his career for Milwaukee. He is not a solid or even average defensive SG. He is below average defensively there as well as not being able to contain speedy PGs. So he struggles to cover both small guards and wings. Then he is too short covering bigs. So his switching is not nearly as effective as I believed / expected it would be.

Definitely an offensively orientated player now. Offense-only? I don't know. Is that too harsh? But veering in that direction.

You say he was much worse defensively this past season but the defensive metrics say otherwise when compared to Smart. Plus Brogdan had a much higher rate of defensive rebounds.

Here are two other defensive metrics:

Defensive EPM = Smart +1.6 Brogdon -0.5
Defensive RAPTOR = Smart +0.7 Brogdon -0.6

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Overall EPM = Smart +1.7 Brogdon +0.2
Overall RAPTOR = Smart +1.4 Brogdon +1.2

Those include playoffs when Brogdon played badly hurt. Still good response. I’m pretty unfamiliar with which metrics tend to be more persuasive.

 By the way I found the podcast with Cooper of Indy you mentioned in an earlier post. It was back on July 7, 2022 Dome Theory with Bobby Manning. It was excellent breakdown of Malcolm’s strengths and weaknesses. Your recollection was quite accurate. Also how much they have decided to speed up their offense by having Halliburton take the reigns.

Re: Brogdon is Better than Smart
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2023, 07:08:14 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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I got mad respect for Marcus Smart....




but through the years I noticed he flopped alot...

but Mr Marcus hit big time 3's when needed.

I dont think he is the reason we did not go further.

We shoulda traded



jus sayin..

*sippin*