First Legitimate Big 3 for Celtics Since 2012?

[jpotter33]

Have been thinking about our successes and failures over the past decade and how we’ve been so close so many times, and it dawned on me that this year may be our first *legitimate* Big 3 with a legit 3rd star-level player since Pierce, KG, and Allen.

2015-2016: IT alone with role players

2016-2017: IT and Horford and role players

2017-2018: Irving and Horford - Hayward would count as the third star but it unfortunately only lasted five minutes and took away Hayward’s star status.

2018-2019: Irving and Horford - Hayward injured and Jays just now starting to show promise as stars.

2019-2020: Kemba and Tatum - Hayward becomes high level role player again but not true star level, Brown close to making star ascension but not quite there.

2020-2021: Tatum and Brown - the Jays era begins in earnest, but Kemba is a shell of himself after injuries and no longer a reliable star.

2021-2022: Tatum and Brown - Horford returns but is no longer star level, and Smart wins DPOY but not exactly a reliable third star.

2022-2023: Tatum and Brown - same as 2022 with both of the Jays making leaps.

2023-2024: Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis - really the only time we’ll have three legitimate current star level players since the Hayward injury.

Who knows - maybe having the legitimate third star is what we need to get over the top? Interested to see how we look with a real, legitimate Big 3, as we were robbed of the opportunity last time with Hayward’s injury.

[Vermont Green]

I will add to this as I think it is a good point.  In the Brown-Tatum era, the following are the C and PF for the most used line up for each season:

2016-17   Horford + Amir Johnson
2017-18   Horford + Baynes
2018-19   Horford + Morris
2019-20   Theis + Tatum (this was in the Gordon Hayward era)
2020-21   Theis + Thompson
2021-22   Horford + RWill
2022-23   Horford + Tatum

The 2021-22 season was pretty successful with Horford and RWill.  RWill was not healthy the entire season but enough.

Now we are probably going to have Horford + Porzingis as the PF/C pair for the most used line up.  We can still go 1-big at times if we choose but even then, Porzingis is a better 1-big than we have had in a while.  I think the Celtics are better if they have 2 legit bigs on the floor.  It changes everything, so long as both (or at least 1) is a scoring threat. 

In our case, we will now have 2 bigs that can both defend and score, and one of them can score a lot.  Having 2 bigs will help our defense and having both able to score will allow our offense to be much less predictable.  We will be able to attack in more ways.  It may take a bit to get everyone playing together so don't panic after the first month or so but go ahead and bookmark this if you want.  I think this team is going to be very good, much improved over last season.

[Rikibellevie]

Have been thinking about our successes and failures over the past decade and how we’ve been so close so many times, and it dawned on me that this year may be our first *legitimate* Big 3 with a legit 3rd star-level player since Pierce, KG, and Allen.

2015-2016: IT alone with role players

2016-2017: IT and Horford and role players

2017-2018: Irving and Horford - Hayward would count as the third star but it unfortunately only lasted five minutes and took away Hayward’s star status.

2018-2019: Irving and Horford - Hayward injured and Jays just now starting to show promise as stars.

2019-2020: Kemba and Tatum - Hayward becomes high level role player again but not true star level, Brown close to making star ascension but not quite there.

2020-2021: Tatum and Brown - the Jays era begins in earnest, but Kemba is a shell of himself after injuries and no longer a reliable star.

2021-2022: Tatum and Brown - Horford returns but is no longer star level, and Smart wins DPOY but not exactly a reliable third star.

2022-2023: Tatum and Brown - same as 2022 with both of the Jays making leaps.

2023-2024: Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis - really the only time we’ll have three legitimate current star level players since the Hayward injury.

Who knows - maybe having the legitimate third star is what we need to get over the top? Interested to see how we look with a real, legitimate Big 3, as we were robbed of the opportunity last time with Hayward’s injury.

If you fairly judge the players at this stage, entering the season, I don't think 2023 Porzingis is more valuable than the multiple all star 2020 Kemba or the former all star 2017 or 2019 Hayward. They were more proved players to value their teams. And the team during the Irving era was supposely more loaded in talent. Not sure it is that important to have a big 3 on the paper (not even saying that they are 2 wings and a big that have also some wing tendance -not a pure 5-)

[RJ87]

I will add to this as I think it is a good point.  In the Brown-Tatum era, the following are the C and PF for the most used line up for each season:

2016-17   Horford + Amir Johnson
2017-18   Horford + Baynes
2018-19   Horford + Morris
2019-20   Theis + Tatum (this was in the Gordon Hayward era)
2020-21   Theis + Thompson
2021-22   Horford + RWill
2022-23   Horford + Tatum

The 2021-22 season was pretty successful with Horford and RWill.  RWill was not healthy the entire season but enough.

Now we are probably going to have Horford + Porzingis as the PF/C pair for the most used line up.  We can still go 1-big at times if we choose but even then, Porzingis is a better 1-big than we have had in a while.  I think the Celtics are better if they have 2 legit bigs on the floor.  It changes everything, so long as both (or at least 1) is a scoring threat. 

In our case, we will now have 2 bigs that can both defend and score, and one of them can score a lot.  Having 2 bigs will help our defense and having both able to score will allow our offense to be much less predictable.  We will be able to attack in more ways.  It may take a bit to get everyone playing together so don't panic after the first month or so but go ahead and bookmark this if you want.  I think this team is going to be very good, much improved over last season.

I'm excited for the potential of our offense. Jayson Tatum has never played with a big this skilled. That pick & roll/pop game will be fun to watch.

[Vermont Green]

If you fairly judge the players at this stage, entering the season, I don't think 2023 Porzingis is more valuable than the multiple all star 2020 Kemba or the former all star 2017 or 2019 Hayward. They were more proved players to value their teams. And the team during the Irving era was supposely more loaded in talent. Not sure it is that important to have a big 3 on the paper (not even saying that they are 2 wings and a big that have also some wing tendance -not a pure 5-)

That is all fair but for guards/wings, we are going to have Tatum and Brown.   They are both all stars, Tatum first team and Brown second team all NBA.  They are both better than Kemba or Hayward ever were and certainly better than Kemba by the time we got him and better than Hayward post injury.  But it is fair to say that those teams had some skill.

My point is that we are going to have even more skill now and a more balanced roster.  Whether you think Kemba at the time is better than 27/28 year old Porzingis, the team is going to be better because now we have some skill in the front court.

It is funny to me, that we are finally going to have a big that can score from 3 (Horford not withstanding) and now Porzingis is a big with wing tendencies.  I don't see that as a problem.

[JSD]

One common factor among all those teams was a profound absence of urgency ingrained in their DNA.

Hopefully, at the very least, the shake-ups managed to sufficiently disturb the algorithm, thereby eliminating that problem. The talent is there.

[Rikibellevie]

If you fairly judge the players at this stage, entering the season, I don't think 2023 Porzingis is more valuable than the multiple all star 2020 Kemba or the former all star 2017 or 2019 Hayward. They were more proved players to value their teams. And the team during the Irving era was supposely more loaded in talent. Not sure it is that important to have a big 3 on the paper (not even saying that they are 2 wings and a big that have also some wing tendance -not a pure 5-)

That is all fair but for guards/wings, we are going to have Tatum and Brown.   They are both all stars, Tatum first team and Brown second team all NBA.  They are both better than Kemba or Hayward ever were and certainly better than Kemba by the time we got him and better than Hayward post injury.  But it is fair to say that those teams had some skill.

My point is that we are going to have even more skill now and a more balanced roster.  Whether you think Kemba at the time is better than 27/28 year old Porzingis, the team is going to be better because now we have some skill in the front court.

It is funny to me, that we are finally going to have a big that can score from 3 (Horford not withstanding) and now Porzingis is a big with wing tendencies.  I don't see that as a problem.

If he fits well into the 3rd offensive option, accept his role, sign a contract not too long and not too expensive, stay more healthy than previous, then yes it may turn in a very postitive big option in the all 3's Mazzula game. In regular season it may work both offensively or defensively.

In the PO's and especially the playmaking of the team right now and the liability to have 2 guys who can't switch on quick all star wings or guards in the series, it may be a liabilty. 2 bigs not always walk in PO (Gobert Towns, Allen Mobley, Davis Cousins)
Again I respect your opinion and esp the way you explain it, but now Tatum must become an elite playmaker and finisher if no trade is coming. Hard to believe. If not we will just be more individual, les intense, less collectiv.

[Vermont Green]

One common factor among all those teams was a profound absence of urgency ingrained in their DNA.

Hopefully, at the very least, the shake-ups managed to sufficiently disturb the algorithm, thereby eliminating that problem. The talent is there.

There were differences between the 2021-22 team that lost in the finals and the 2022-23 team that lost in the ECF.  The 2021-22 team to me just wasn't up to the "bigness" of the moment in the finals.  I didn't see an issue with urgency on the way to the finals.

In 2022-23, the issue was consistency, which could be related to urgency.  I think the team played hard, they just were inconsistent.  I don't know exactly what the problem was, probably some combination of:

   1.  Too much live by the 3, die by the 3
   2.  Too much offensive predictability
   3.  Maybe a sense that getting back to the finals was expected (not earned)
   4.  A young coach on his heels trying to figure things out with a team that was a little stunned that their coach got fired

[Neurotic Guy]

It keeps crossing my mind that as of now the C's also have Derrick White and Malcolm Brogdon.  I'd actually put either of them up against the #2 in many of the years in the original post.   DW showed signs he could be borderline all-star level next year. I feel like MB has been a notch below all-star level for much of his career.

[blink]

It keeps crossing my mind that as of now the C's also have Derrick White and Malcolm Brogdon.  I'd actually put either of them up against the #2 in many of the years in the original post.   DW showed signs he could be borderline all-star level next year. I feel like MB has been a notch below all-star level for much of his career.

Yes as much as I hated that we lost Smart, even if we end up with this, I guess on paper this is a super talented team, expectations are going to be high
starters:  DWhite, JBrown, JT, Al, KP
2nd team: PP, MB, SH, GW, RW

[SparzWizard]

I hope Porzingis is that Kevin Garnett of the Big 3.

Jayson Tatum is the Paul Pierce
Jaylen Brown is the Ray Allen

Back then, it was the SG-SF-PF positions that were the Big 3. Here it is, again. In every Big 3, there has to be that small-forward and that big man to be part of it and we finally satisfied that.

[No Nickname]

It keeps crossing my mind that as of now the C's also have Derrick White and Malcolm Brogdon.  I'd actually put either of them up against the #2 in many of the years in the original post.   DW showed signs he could be borderline all-star level next year. I feel like MB has been a notch below all-star level for much of his career.

Honestly, we're going to have a much smarter (ironic isn't it?) team without Smart. 

Even though he made "winning plays" he was far too often the one making an unforced error. 

White and Brogdon will hopefully run the offense without so much of the unpredictability.  They may not have Smart's heart, but they'll have more smarts.

[Rikibellevie]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

[RJ87]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

[Rikibellevie]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.