Is Smart/KP trade good….

[Ed Monix]

If it's meant as a rental, it's a terrible trade.

But, I've got to assume that's not the thinking.

“The Latvian center wanted to make a move to Boston. To make it happen, he had to opt-in to his player option in the deal with the Wizards. With subsequently only one year left in the contract, Porzingis is expected to sign a two-year extension with the Celtics”, NBA insider Marc Stein reports.

[goCeltics]

as looking at 82games,

The C's were 1.5 points per 100 possessions worse off when Marcus was on the floor, defence was better with him off the court

http://www.82games.com/2223/22BOS3.HTM

While the Wiz were nearly 6 points better with Zinger on the floor

http://www.82games.com/2223/22WAS23.HTM

Looks pretty positive.

Also was looking at Zinger's basketball reference page, he took fewer shots last year per 100 possessions than he did when he was with the Mavs.

IF, IF he remains healthy he will produce, Maz's crap coaching withstanding.

[obnoxiousmime]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Do we though? What tough football lineman type players did the Nuggets have this year? I think it's more about skill and focus. Guys like Smart and Grant Williams often lost focus and that impacts everyone else on the team, especially in key situations.

I think Jokic is tough, he's just not mobile or a good rim protector. However, he can play back to the basket and score inside the hard way if the situation calls for it. And just his size caused a lot of problems when he was screening for guys. I think Gordon is also physical, athletic, and long. Porter obviously sucked, which is why he sat during crunch time. Bruce Brown is basically built like a short yardage running back, and Braun might not huge but he's feisty and energetic (like a Derrick White). Both Brown and Braun probably won them one game apiece, which is amazing from a mid-level guy and a rookie.

But yeah, you're right that Grant and Smart sometimes weren't locked in. However, in the end who was playing big minutes in the playoffs? It was still Grant and Smart out there because they could hold up physically.

Porzingis is tall and can postup/rim protect, but he's not as big/wide as Jokic. He's not going to go to the rim as often on PnR, because he likes to pop more. As I said, I think it's still a net positive move, but can somebody play next to him that's more strong/physical and who isn't 37 years old or our best player in Tatum? Porzingis is obviously an upgrade, but it's not like he's going to be doing all the dirty work Horford used to do. Who's that player? Currently, it's still Horford!

Jokic is mentally tough, and that's what matters more imo. Physical toughness doesn't equate to elite NBA success, mental toughness does. Smart has extreme passion, effort and physical toughness, but not the mental toughness. Mental toughness is not aggression, it's maintaining poise and focus in all situations and not getting distracted by physical play, poor officiating, trash talking, etc. Smart and Grant, and often enough Brown and Tatum too got caught up in this stuff too often. Guys like White and Brogdon do not.

I mean, that goes without saying. It's hard to quantify that though, as well as other intangibles that get thrown around like "leadership." However, just by looking at the best teams that often are there at the end, they usually have a good combination of size/strength/toughness, especially in the frontcourt. Think of Lopez and Giannis, AD and LeBron, Adebayo and Butler, Jokic and Gordon, Looney and Draymond. I just don't think you go into a Finals and intimidate anybody with Porzingis and a 37 year-old Horford or Tatum playing PF. Sure, Tatum is likely going to be playing his share of PF, but you still need that big, strong, physical glue guy to take on the Adebayos and Giannis' of the world and prevent them from physically dominating the paint area (on both ends). Porzingis just isn't a Horford replacement in those aspects. He brings more offensive versatility and shooting, along with some rim protection and overall size obviously. But what about all the other things Horford brings that Porzingis has never brought?

Maybe Brad is still thinking Rob and Horford are still going to play a lot and Porzingis will play the 4? I would still be more comfortable if we had a PJ Tucker type to take those minutes at PF and not go into the season depending on Horford for a significant role. That's why I was lamenting the likely loss of Grant. While I acknowledge his flaws (maturity, lack of length, not much rebounding, limited offensive diversity), he still provides a critical ability in the playoffs. He can hold up physically to some of the strongest guys in the league and he rarely gets hurt. That's still incredibly valuable.

Oh yeah, I will also say that one of Grant's strengths is he's not afraid to take big shots in the playoffs. The jury is still out on that with some of our other role players.

[Moranis]

Yes. Good even if just for a season since he basically cost nothing and the team got 2 1st's for Smart.  Great cap management and a much better shot at a title this year as the roster makes more sense now.  I'd still like to see 1 more move to pick up an actual PG and another wing, but team is in much better shape

Maybe something like this Brogdon, Pritchard for Okoro, Osman, Rubio

White, Brown, Tatum, Zinger, Rob
Rubio, Okoro, Osman,  Hauser, Grant, Al
Kornet, Davison, Champagnie, Walsh

Cavs need a spark on their bench and Brogdon could give them that, though doesn't solve their no SF problem.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Great trade....now do us all a favor Krystaps and DON'T play in any overseas tournaments this Summer~!

Gallo did this right after we signed him last year.....ugh.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I hope people aren't getting too caught up in comparing Porzingis to Jokic ... a.k.a. the best big on the planet. Every big comes up short in that comparison, LOL.

[Kuberski33]

Does anyone else think there might have been two trades set up? The Brogdon for Zinger trade and the Smart to Memphis. If the first trade with Brogdon goes through do we end up with the picks and Tyus Jones for Smart?  I really like Tyus Jones.

I think so. Just based on one of the interviews I heard Brad do it sounds like he had made a decision to move on from Smart, provided the right deal presented itself. And the main reason was the new collective bargaining agreement.

[Neurotic Guy]

Yes. Good even if just for a season since he basically cost nothing and the team got 2 1st's for Smart.  Great cap management and a much better shot at a title this year as the roster makes more sense now.  I'd still like to see 1 more move to pick up an actual PG and another wing, but team is in much better shape

Maybe something like this Brogdon, Pritchard for Okoro, Osman, Rubio

White, Brown, Tatum, Zinger, Rob
Rubio, Okoro, Osman,  Hauser, Grant, Al
Kornet, Davison, Champagnie, Walsh

Cavs need a spark on their bench and Brogdon could give them that, though doesn't solve their no SF problem.

I think my 2 favorite players in that trade might be Brogdon and Pritchard.  I get that Rubio is a dynamic and creative distributor, but older than and at least equally fragile as Brogdon.  I’m really high on seeing what White can do in the starting role (especially with a summer to prepare). I’m also probably more positive about PP than I should be.  I keep seeing Eddie House in him - great long range, pesky on D, and add good rebounder for his size (smart; hustle).  I think regular minutes with better players will allow him to consistently contribute. 
Love that you have Grant on your roster. I think keeping Grant would be great - he and Luke round out big depth adequately.  Grant adds versatility to the roster.

[gouki88]

as looking at 82games,

The C's were 1.5 points per 100 possessions worse off when Marcus was on the floor, defence was better with him off the court

http://www.82games.com/2223/22BOS3.HTM

While the Wiz were nearly 6 points better with Zinger on the floor

http://www.82games.com/2223/22WAS23.HTM

Looks pretty positive.

Also was looking at Zinger's basketball reference page, he took fewer shots last year per 100 possessions than he did when he was with the Mavs.

IF, IF he remains healthy he will produce, Maz's crap coaching withstanding.

His efficiency inside the arc has made some big improvements recently. 3% better this season to last, and about 6% better than his career average. He seems to utilise his size better inside, as well as drawing more fouls.

It’s a pretty difficult equation for opposing defences too. Tatum is an MVP candidate with a nearly limitless offensive arsenal, Brown is a 25+ nightly scorer, and Porzingis is one of the most difficult matchups in the league who can shoot from anywhere at 7’3”. Nasty trio with some serious size and athleticism.

A lineup of White-Brown-Tatum-Porzingis-Williams 3 is about as intimidating as it gets from a physical standpoint.

[gouki88]

Yes. Good even if just for a season since he basically cost nothing and the team got 2 1st's for Smart.  Great cap management and a much better shot at a title this year as the roster makes more sense now.  I'd still like to see 1 more move to pick up an actual PG and another wing, but team is in much better shape

Maybe something like this Brogdon, Pritchard for Okoro, Osman, Rubio

White, Brown, Tatum, Zinger, Rob
Rubio, Okoro, Osman,  Hauser, Grant, Al
Kornet, Davison, Champagnie, Walsh

Cavs need a spark on their bench and Brogdon could give them that, though doesn't solve their no SF problem.

Rubio is rubbish these days. Soon to be 33 years old, 67 games combined over the last two seasons, and perhaps the worst scoring efficiency in the NBA. He is so much worse than Brogdon it’s not funny. I would argue worse than PP too

[Yuckabuck33]

I'm in the camp that Marcus was addition by subtraction. He needed to go. Our big problem the last few seasons is not having a floor general who can settle a team and finish off games.

I do wonder if Marcus suffered somewhat from not playing "within his role" due to his tenure and status on the team. He should be a "3 and D" player who makes sure the plays get ran. but he at times viewed himself as part of the "big 3". some games taking more shots than tatum/brown or always being the guy to take the last second shot.

Brogdon/White may not bring the same intensity that smart did. but they may be more apt to play within their role and understand where they are in the hierarchy.

I mean Draymond green is a similar player to Smart IMO. But I think he plays within his role. Understanding who he is on that team. You wont see him taking shots away from Curry/Klay

Can someone show me where Marcus Smart said he was a part of a big 3? So many people assume they can read his mind. Why does it never occur to people that he played exactly how his coach wanted him to? Marcus himself said that he wasn't expected to have the ball and run the point until Ime. He shot a lot of 3s last year for a coach... that wants a lot of 3s. This whole Marcus had to leave because of his attitude is ridiculous. He got playing time and accolades from his coaches because he did EXACTLY AS THEY WANTED.

[Moranis]

Yes. Good even if just for a season since he basically cost nothing and the team got 2 1st's for Smart.  Great cap management and a much better shot at a title this year as the roster makes more sense now.  I'd still like to see 1 more move to pick up an actual PG and another wing, but team is in much better shape

Maybe something like this Brogdon, Pritchard for Okoro, Osman, Rubio

White, Brown, Tatum, Zinger, Rob
Rubio, Okoro, Osman,  Hauser, Grant, Al
Kornet, Davison, Champagnie, Walsh

Cavs need a spark on their bench and Brogdon could give them that, though doesn't solve their no SF problem.

Rubio is rubbish these days. Soon to be 33 years old, 67 games combined over the last two seasons, and perhaps the worst scoring efficiency in the NBA. He is so much worse than Brogdon it’s not funny. I would argue worse than PP too

Sure he us worse than Brogdon, but I like Okoro a lot.  Tough defensive SF. Can't score, but Boston doesn't need scoring from that spot.  Osman is a fine 3rd SF as well.  Rubio is a very creative playmaker.  The trade for me is about getting certain skill sets on the bench. Skill sets the team doesn't have, but could use.  Now I can see an argument that Brogdon's shooting is important on the bench, but I'm hoping that Grant has a bounce back shooting, Hauser keeps improving, and moving Al to the bench evens out the shooting.  So I'd take the risk to get a playmaker and defensive wing. 

[gouki88]

Yes. Good even if just for a season since he basically cost nothing and the team got 2 1st's for Smart.  Great cap management and a much better shot at a title this year as the roster makes more sense now.  I'd still like to see 1 more move to pick up an actual PG and another wing, but team is in much better shape

Maybe something like this Brogdon, Pritchard for Okoro, Osman, Rubio

White, Brown, Tatum, Zinger, Rob
Rubio, Okoro, Osman,  Hauser, Grant, Al
Kornet, Davison, Champagnie, Walsh

Cavs need a spark on their bench and Brogdon could give them that, though doesn't solve their no SF problem.

Rubio is rubbish these days. Soon to be 33 years old, 67 games combined over the last two seasons, and perhaps the worst scoring efficiency in the NBA. He is so much worse than Brogdon it’s not funny. I would argue worse than PP too

Sure he us worse than Brogdon, but I like Okoro a lot.  Tough defensive SF. Can't score, but Boston doesn't need scoring from that spot.  Osman is a fine 3rd SF as well.  Rubio is a very creative playmaker.  The trade for me is about getting certain skill sets on the bench. Skill sets the team doesn't have, but could use.  Now I can see an argument that Brogdon's shooting is important on the bench, but I'm hoping that Grant has a bounce back shooting, Hauser keeps improving, and moving Al to the bench evens out the shooting.  So I'd take the risk to get a playmaker and defensive wing.

I don't think Okoro really helps us much. Wouldn't play much here. Hauser is more useful. Definitely not worth giving Brogdon up for such limited guys.

[liam]

Does anyone else think there might have been two trades set up? The Brogdon for Zinger trade and the Smart to Memphis. If the first trade with Brogdon goes through do we end up with the picks and Tyus Jones for Smart?  I really like Tyus Jones.

I think so. Just based on one of the interviews I heard Brad do it sounds like he had made a decision to move on from Smart, provided the right deal presented itself. And the main reason was the new collective bargaining agreement.

I wonder if we can still trade for Tyus Jones? Grant for Jones works with some picks thrown the Wiz's way.

[cman88]

Does anyone else think there might have been two trades set up? The Brogdon for Zinger trade and the Smart to Memphis. If the first trade with Brogdon goes through do we end up with the picks and Tyus Jones for Smart?  I really like Tyus Jones.

I think so. Just based on one of the interviews I heard Brad do it sounds like he had made a decision to move on from Smart, provided the right deal presented itself. And the main reason was the new collective bargaining agreement.

I wonder if we can still trade for Tyus Jones? Grant for Jones works with some picks thrown the Wiz's way.

you don't just pivot from Brogdon to Smart so quickly (within the span of a couple hours) if the frameworks hadn't already been discussed. So I do think it was something they had thought about.

I think Brogdon stays now. I am surprised how the view of him has changed dramatically just because he was injured against Miami. I mean he shot 44% from 3. the assists numbers could be better, but the 3 years prior in Indy he averaged 5.9, 5.9 and 7.1 so he has the ability. It may just not have been what they were looking for from him