Would we have won with Ime?

[celticinorlando]

Yes because this team never got past Ime getting let go and they played like it.

[Kernewek]

Obviously this is one of those butterfly effect questions that opens up a million possibilities, but my first inclination is no, because I think the prioritisation of offense happens regardless, based on the Finals, and I don't think the roster (assuming it stays the same) or the coaching staff could do much about the defensive drop-off. I think we're still living and dying by the three.

But what do I know.

I don’t buy this logic at all.

It’s not a coincidence that we went from an elite defensive-minded team under a defensive-minded coach to an offensive-minded team under an offensive-minded coach.

No way Ime let’s the defense drop as much as it did. That’s completely out of step with his priorities.

I mean let’s agree that this is a ridiculous thread on the face of it, but if we operate under the assumption that nothing else has changed except for the head coach, the roster is still optimised to solve offensive problems, not defensive ones, and we do nothing to alleviate Horford’s decline and the impact this has on our defense.

[W8ting2McHale]

No.

They had the perfect chance to win the title last year with Ime, and they blew it. That might have been the best chance the J’s had of winning a championship together and they threw it away.

If they couldn’t bring banner 18 home last year with Ime leading them, then I have no confidence that they would have done it this season.

[Who]

Yes

[RJ87]

Obviously this is one of those butterfly effect questions that opens up a million possibilities, but my first inclination is no, because I think the prioritisation of offense happens regardless, based on the Finals, and I don't think the roster (assuming it stays the same) or the coaching staff could do much about the defensive drop-off. I think we're still living and dying by the three.

But what do I know.

I don’t buy this logic at all.

It’s not a coincidence that we went from an elite defensive-minded team under a defensive-minded coach to an offensive-minded team under an offensive-minded coach.

No way Ime let’s the defense drop as much as it did. That’s completely out of step with his priorities.

Whether Ime was back or not, we still start this season without Rob Williams and Al looking a noticeable step slower.

If Ime was here, would he have immediately went back to the 2 big lineup when Rob came back and relegate an All-Defensive player in Derrick White to the bench? Who knows?

I just don't think it's as cut and dry as some are trying to make it seem.

[SCeltic34]

Ime prioritized defense.  The games we played well defensively we mostly won.  I'm 100% certain that we would have reached the finals if we had Ime instead of Joe.

[SparzWizard]

Absolutely.

In fact, the C's would have had the #1 seed and taken out the Heat in the first-round, the Knicks in the following round, and whoever shows up in the ECF.

[gouki88]

I think so. I doubt Stoudemire leaves, and Joe remains on the bench. More stability, more focus.

I don't think we beat Denver

[Moranis]

Under Ime, Boston had the 7th rated offense and 2nd rated defense which led to the 2nd best net rating.  Under Joe, Boston had the 2nd rated offense, 3rd rated defense, and best net rating. Both seasons Boston had the highest SRS.   The total ppg were higher under Joe, but so was the pace.

I just don't see much difference n actual team performance over the course of the seasons.  If Tatum doesn't get hurt and Brown has more efficient and both have a similar game 7 as last years against the Heat, I suspect Boston wins this year as well.

Now that doesn't mean coaching isn't an issue, I just think it was last year as well and people aren't remembering last year because it isn't as fresh and the players played better in game 7 than they did this year.

[Roy H.]

Under Ime, Boston had the 7th rated offense and 2nd rated defense which led to the 2nd best net rating.  Under Joe, Boston had the 2nd rated offense, 3rd rated defense, and best net rating. Both seasons Boston had the highest SRS.   The total ppg were higher under Joe, but so was the pace.

I just don't see much difference n actual team performance over the course of the seasons.  If Tatum doesn't get hurt and Brown has more efficient and both have a similar game 7 as last years against the Heat, I suspect Boston wins this year as well.

Now that doesn't mean coaching isn't an issue, I just think it was last year as well and people aren't remembering last year because it isn't as fresh and the players played better in game 7 than they did this year.

"Over the course of the season" being the key words.  Ime had to break the team of bad habits.  It took until about January.  From that point we dominated.

Joe had to maintain the status quo.  Instead, he made them appreciably worse.

[Celtics4ever]

"Over the course of the season" being the key words.  Ime had to break the team of bad habits.  It took until about January.  From that point we dominated."

Coach Maz was the opposite, we dominated until Dec and got worse from there.  Do you think that was carryover from Ime?

[Roy H.]

"Over the course of the season" being the key words.  Ime had to break the team of bad habits.  It took until about January.  From that point we dominated."

Coach Maz was the opposite, we dominated until Dec and got worse from there.  Do you think that was carryover from Ime?

I haven't checked the numbers, but just going by the "best offense in history" heights we reached early, I think it was probably partially a carry over.  Another part was exceptionally good play from role players like Hauser, who was extremely accurate from outside in October and November, before dipping in December and January.

Comparing and contrasting down the stretch (January 1 - end of season)

2022:  106.7 DRtg; 119.4 ORtg; Net Rtg +12.7

2023:  112.1 DRtg; 118.5 ORtg; Net Rtg +6.4

So, compared to last year, we gave up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions, scored 0.9 points fewer per 100 possessions, and had a decline in Net Rtg of 6.3 points per 100 possessions.  That's a pretty huge differential.

[Surferdad]

Ime prioritized defense.  The games we played well defensively we mostly won.  I'm 100% certain that we would have reached the finals if we had Ime instead of Joe.

THIS, plus add Brogdon and Gallinari to that roster for more offense.

[gouki88]

"Over the course of the season" being the key words.  Ime had to break the team of bad habits.  It took until about January.  From that point we dominated."

Coach Maz was the opposite, we dominated until Dec and got worse from there.  Do you think that was carryover from Ime?

I haven't checked the numbers, but just going by the "best offense in history" heights we reached early, I think it was probably partially a carry over. Another part was exceptionally good play from role players like Hauser, who was extremely accurate from outside in October and November, before dipping in December and January.

Comparing and contrasting down the stretch (January 1 - end of season)

2022:  106.7 DRtg; 119.4 ORtg; Net Rtg +12.7

2023:  112.1 DRtg; 118.5 ORtg; Net Rtg +6.4

So, compared to last year, we gave up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions, scored 0.9 points fewer per 100 possessions, and had a decline in Net Rtg of 6.3 points per 100 possessions.  That's a pretty huge differential.

The refusal to play Hauser as the season went on bothers me. He consistently stepped up when given more minutes

[Roy H.]

"Over the course of the season" being the key words.  Ime had to break the team of bad habits.  It took until about January.  From that point we dominated."

Coach Maz was the opposite, we dominated until Dec and got worse from there.  Do you think that was carryover from Ime?

I haven't checked the numbers, but just going by the "best offense in history" heights we reached early, I think it was probably partially a carry over. Another part was exceptionally good play from role players like Hauser, who was extremely accurate from outside in October and November, before dipping in December and January.

Comparing and contrasting down the stretch (January 1 - end of season)

2022:  106.7 DRtg; 119.4 ORtg; Net Rtg +12.7

2023:  112.1 DRtg; 118.5 ORtg; Net Rtg +6.4

So, compared to last year, we gave up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions, scored 0.9 points fewer per 100 possessions, and had a decline in Net Rtg of 6.3 points per 100 possessions.  That's a pretty huge differential.

The refusal to play Hauser as the season went on bothers me. He consistently stepped up when given more minutes

Yeah, I'm sure that managing a rotation is really tricky, but a lot of guys seemed to temporarily slump and then were out of the rotation almost completely.  I think that guys like Grant, Hauser, Muscula and Pritchard all could have helped more than they did, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

I also worry a bit about the "political" aspect of some of those decisions.  Grant Williams is VP of the NBAPA.  Brogdon and Brown are Assistant VPs, I think.  Do those guys speak highly of Joe, because he's a player's coach?  Or lowly, because he doesn't know what he's doing and he's happy to bury guys on the bench based upon a whim?  It's hard to say.