For all you guys blaming Joe…

[Chef Parish]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

[angryguy77]

Everyone saying "but Ime".....can you point to as many terrible decisions as Joe made? Last year we were losing primarily due to turnovers. It wasn't due to bad rotations, bad defense or a bad offensive scheme. Yeah he had his controversial drop coverage, but imo that wasn't what cost us. Being tired, injured, and inexperienced all played a larger role.

So while I agree there is a problem the players need to fix, that doesn't absolve the coach being bad at his job.

The thing I don't understand about those who blame the players mostly is why don't we see kore "x has to go and not just JB" or more rants in general? If you all really do place this on the players, then you must be ok with breaking the band up and reload.

[Roy H.]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

We're not going to win.  But if we did, probably the team's #1 achievement would be overcoming Joe's coaching.

You don't keep a bad employee around (in any field) just because things ended up working out.

[Chef Parish]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

We're not going to win.  But if we did, probably the team's #1 achievement would be overcoming Joe's coaching.

You don't keep a bad employee around (in any field) just because things ended up working out.

I'm not saying Joe is a great coach or even a good coach. But if they so happen to win the championship, there's no way they let him go unless it's other circumstances.

[Goldstar88]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

We're not going to win.  But if we did, probably the team's #1 achievement would be overcoming Joe's coaching.

You don't keep a bad employee around (in any field) just because things ended up working out.

I'm not saying Joe is a great coach or even a good coach. But if they so happen to win the championship, there's no way they let him go unless it's other circumstances.

Yep. If the C’s win the championship many think the coach should still be fired. Can’t make this stuff up. 

[action781]

Overlooked stat:  Joe currently has the highest playoff series winning % out of all head coaches in NBA history. 

He has never lost a playoff series in his career as a head coach, including a series where his team came back from down 3-2.

As long as that stat is true, any talk of blaming or replacing him is premature to me.

[Mahk E Mahk]

Overlooked stat:  Joe currently has the highest playoff series winning % out of all head coaches in NBA history. 

He has never lost a playoff series in his career as a head coach, including a series where his team came back from down 3-2.

As long as that stat is true, any talk of blaming or replacing him is premature to me.

does the law of small numbers mean anything to you? what about sample size?

this is a meaningless junk stat that masks joe’s enormous flaws, and doesn’t take into consideration the talent joe inherited or whether he has contributed to the team’s success. some guys are victims of their circumstances, while others are beneficiaries. remove joe from the equation and it could easily be argued the C’s do no worse and potentially improve on their performance this season.

the question that should be asked, even if the C’s win the championship, is whether joe is maximizing the potential of his team or not.

[Who]

Regarding turnover problems last year,

I put a lot of that down to the big lineup. Two bigs, the Jays and Smart. Not enough ball-handling, passing / playmaking from the backcourt. Rob Williams obviously limited offensively at center.

I thought Brogdon could help reduce this issue. Both in terms of replacing Smart at times in the big lineup but also in terms of ensuring 2 of 3 out of Tatum / Jaylen / Brogdon stay on the floor at all times to keep two shot creators on the floor to give offensive balance. I also thought Brogdon would allow better small ball lineups with Tatum at PF (D White struggled offensively last season) that would also reduce the turnover issues.

What I am saying ... trying to say ... I don't think Ime was the problem in terms of turnover issues. I saw it more as a personnel issue. One that should have been solved or at least vastly improved with the talent upgrades we had this summer.

Thus, I view the turnover problems late in games this year as more [dang]ing than the turnover problems last year.

[angryguy77]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

We're not going to win.  But if we did, probably the team's #1 achievement would be overcoming Joe's coaching.

You don't keep a bad employee around (in any field) just because things ended up working out.

I'm not saying Joe is a great coach or even a good coach. But if they so happen to win the championship, there's no way they let him go unless it's other circumstances.

Yep. If the C’s win the championship many think the coach should still be fired. Can’t make this stuff up. 

If a team wins despite the coach, you think the coach should continue to get paid?

I don't get it. You say it's the players who win, but the coach deserves to stay on if they win.  Either coach impacts the team enough to win or he doesn't.

[Roy H.]

Well said.  I'd love to get Budenholzer next year.  Yes, he has his faults.  He didn't make the right call when Butler scored the winning bucket against them on that inbounds pass from midcourt.

But he's a smart coach.  Did really well with the Hawks.  And won a 'ship with the Bucks.

I hope he doesn't get hired before we beat the Nuggets in the Finals.

The Celtics will fire Joe if he wins the Finals this year?

I'm not sure if they will, but they should. This has been the best opportunity to win a championship so far and the C's have underperformed. There's no reason for it to continue into next year.

But if they win WITH Joe, then they didn't underperform (even if road was more difficult than it should've been).

I'm questioning the poster who said they should fire Joe if they win the Finals this year. Losing now or in the Finals- sure BUT winning the championship? What scenario does that happen in?

We're not going to win.  But if we did, probably the team's #1 achievement would be overcoming Joe's coaching.

You don't keep a bad employee around (in any field) just because things ended up working out.

I'm not saying Joe is a great coach or even a good coach. But if they so happen to win the championship, there's no way they let him go unless it's other circumstances.

"Will they" and "should they" are different questions.  If a guy isn't a good coach, he shouldn't be coaching a contender.  Interestingly, Milwaukee and Phoenix got rid of their very good coaches, while we debate a bottom-five guy.

[Moranis]

I'm not saying it is Joe's fault entirely, but I honestly can't think of a single thing he's done that worked and I thought wow that was a great move.  Conversely, I have thought man that was a dumb move and then it goes poorly.  If you aren't a good X and O guy then you better be a motivator, and Joe is neither while you can look across the court at Spo who does both extremely well. 

At the end of the day Boston has more talent and should still win this series, but as Roy says it will be in spite of Joe not because of him.  He just isn't ready to be a head coach and shouldn't be.  Heck he'd never been a #2 guy before being elevated to head coach (he may not have even been a #3).  It is just too much for him and not bringing an experienced guy for the bench was jsut another major error by the front office.

[Yuckabuck33]

Grant Williams poking the bear ( Butler) , giving him extra fuel is ridiculous stupidity . 

Not sure as a player I could forgive him , in such an important game.

Grant is not an star and has no business messing with an Alpha opponent star period , much less in a critical game.

Too many dummies on this team .

Eh, about Grant, I think Keith Smith made a good point:

"Should Williams have poked the bear? Probably not. But Butler went 3-of-6 with a turnover after that happened.

Butler is probably doing that no matter what in the fourth quarter. That’s actually kind of ho-hum for him down the stretch. It’s not like he turned into prime Michael Jordan and scored 20 points over the final six minutes of the game. He did what he does in the clutch.

Also, at least Williams was showing some fight. He was willing to scrap and to get into it. That’s a lot more than could be said for most of his Celtics teammates in Game 2."
Food for thought.

[jpotter33]

I'm not saying it is Joe's fault entirely, but I honestly can't think of a single thing he's done that worked and I thought wow that was a great move.  Conversely, I have thought man that was a dumb move and then it goes poorly.  If you aren't a good X and O guy then you better be a motivator, and Joe is neither while you can look across the court at Spo who does both extremely well. 

At the end of the day Boston has more talent and should still win this series, but as Roy says it will be in spite of Joe not because of him.  He just isn't ready to be a head coach and shouldn't be.  Heck he'd never been a #2 guy before being elevated to head coach (he may not have even been a #3).  It is just too much for him and not bringing an experienced guy for the bench was jsut another major error by the front office.

TP. I think people still don’t realize how out of left field the Joe decision was given how inexperienced he is. People like to compare it to the Ime situation, but Ime was exponentially more qualified and experienced, and it showed.

[Celtic_Pride777]

To be fair, celtics have been doing this through 3 coaches now.

because we made the finals last year I see ALOT of revisionist history. people forget we traded blowouts with the bucks and went down 3-2 before we needed tatum heroics to pull that out in 7.

we traded blowouts with Miami in the conference finals too! Blew a double digit lead in a closeout game, and nearly blew a double digit lead in game 7! which was saved by Butler missing a 3. then lost 3 straight to the warriors turning the ball over the same way they are here.

so, this is an ongoing issue that has not been fixed. Brad stepped down because they stopped listening to him, took Ime half a season to get them to listen to him and then they tuned him out in the playoffs basically for half the games. Now its the same thing.

For a team that has been to the conference finals as much as the Celtics. they act like a team thats never been here before. act scared in a close game and give the ball away and take bad shots. This is a player issue, and i'm not sure how you fix it.

even assuming we bring the same team back next year with gallinari. its still one of the most talented teams in the league. but they lack some sort of mental ability to play like it.

Miami is the opposite. they lack the talent. But they just play disciplined and dont get nervous.

As I said in another thread, it all goes back to the Jays. I know they're phenomenal players, but I think they're too accustomed to success at this point, so they take it for granted. Great players like Steph Curry and LeBron were drafted into teams that weren't contenders. They needed time to mature and learn how to be champions after repeated failures and trial and error. Instead of playing disciplined, high-IQ basketball and playing within the flow of the offense, the Jays think they can coast to a title. Hence the inconsistent play, blown leads, and falling over themselves in crunch time. Losing in the ECF isn't a big deal to them. They just assume they'll be back next year.

[cman88]

question is, will the celtics fire Joe after just extending him? (althought I doubt it was for big money).

there weren't alot of coaches on the market last year when Ime got suspended. but right now the market is chock full of coaches.

Celtics basically can hand pick whomever they want if they decide to go another route. Any coach would beg to come here and coach this team. I think thats what scares most posters. we could have a Nurse 100% but may end up just stuck with Joe if the team is stubborn...