The roster flaw that still hurts...

[CFAN38]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

In general the way the Cs handled their big man depth this past season was a surprise to me.

I was expecting them to draft a project big on draft night but think they made the right move with JD who I like as a long term project.

Coming out of camp I was also surprised that they went with Kornet and Vonleh, I suspect that was a cost saving measure to give a young cheap player a shot knowing that a vet would be available later in the season. Favors was the Vet who I thought the Cs would bring in but given that he hasn't joined another team for more then a few days my guess is that he is toast.

Trade deadline I liked the Muscala trade and still like his fit this season and next. This just isn't a series to utilize to utilize him. I though Andre Drummond would be a target as someone who would bring a physical element and elite rebounding to the roster. I understand BS sticking with a shooter and all the benefits that come with having a 7' who can space the court.

The only real FLAW I see right now is the Mazzula's unwillingness to play Grant. The Cs are currenlty bailing Young out by putting their bigs in drop coverage and running elaborate schemes in order to rotate over to Young rather than simply switching. The Cs have a Warriors style "death lineup" and they just refuse to use it. Grant,Tatum,Brown,Smart, and White all on the court together (or Brogdon) would take the Cs out of rotation and force Young to beat a + defender 1v1 in order to score. For that matter late in the game play Tatum at the 5 with Brown and the 3 guards. Stevens has given Mazzula the pieces to run multiple elite defensive lineups and he seems to be stuck in his ways. 
   

[wdleehi]

I don't understand not playing Grant.   The one time he was actually used in series, he played well.


I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up and don't see something they respect.   Last years sweep of the Nets was because of Durant.  They respect him so much, they never let go of the rope. 

When they got up on Miami and the Bucks, they relaxed.


Going into this game, everyone (media wise) was talking about the 76ers already.

If they fail this year (which is still a long way off), adding someone who can focus this team would help. 

[droopdog7]

I think the biggest roster flaw is that our top end guy (JT) has WAY too many down games in the playoffs.  You would expect him to easily be the best guy in this series, and that just has not been the case. 

[Vermont Green]

I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up...

I think this is the key point (others have said similar things).  You would think they would have learned.  It happened last year in the playoffs also as noted, when we had a different coach.

I think the right coach could/should help with this but I don't think it is necessarily the coach's fault, at least not in this case.  I doubt he told the team, "there is 6:00 left and we have a nice lead, so start walking the ball up the court and run predictable sets".  On the other hand, it was clear that this was what they were doing so it would have been nice if the coach could have gotten through to them and got them to continue to push the pace, force the issue.

A different back up center sitting on the bench would not have changed the last 6:00 of the game.

[SparzWizard]

I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up...

I think this is the key point (others have said similar things).  You would think they would have learned.  It happened last year in the playoffs also as noted, when we had a different coach.

I think the right coach could/should help with this but I don't think it is necessarily the coach's fault, at least not in this case.  I doubt he told the team, "there is 6:00 left and we have a nice lead, so start walking the ball up the court and run predictable sets".  On the other hand, it was clear that this was what they were doing so it would have been nice if the coach could have gotten through to them and got them to continue to push the pace, force the issue.

A different back up center sitting on the bench would not have changed the last 6:00 of the game.

Well here's the thing, coach doesn't wanna call a timeout to talk things over. He expects the guys to know to adjust by themselves like wtheck what is the point of having Joe Schmoe as a coach then?

[slamtheking]

I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up...

I think this is the key point (others have said similar things).  You would think they would have learned.  It happened last year in the playoffs also as noted, when we had a different coach.

I think the right coach could/should help with this but I don't think it is necessarily the coach's fault, at least not in this case.  I doubt he told the team, "there is 6:00 left and we have a nice lead, so start walking the ball up the court and run predictable sets".  On the other hand, it was clear that this was what they were doing so it would have been nice if the coach could have gotten through to them and got them to continue to push the pace, force the issue.

A different back up center sitting on the bench would not have changed the last 6:00 of the game.

Well here's the thing, coach doesn't wanna call a timeout to talk things over. He expects the guys to know to adjust by themselves like wtheck what is the point of having Joe Schmoe as a coach then?

there really isn't one

[Roy H.]

I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up...

I think this is the key point (others have said similar things).  You would think they would have learned.  It happened last year in the playoffs also as noted, when we had a different coach.

I think the right coach could/should help with this but I don't think it is necessarily the coach's fault, at least not in this case.  I doubt he told the team, "there is 6:00 left and we have a nice lead, so start walking the ball up the court and run predictable sets".  On the other hand, it was clear that this was what they were doing so it would have been nice if the coach could have gotten through to them and got them to continue to push the pace, force the issue.

A different back up center sitting on the bench would not have changed the last 6:00 of the game.

I'm happy to concede that the blown lead is largely due to coaching and poor performance by the players on the floor.

At the same time, repeatedly allowing inside buckets with no resistance and allowing Atlanta to grab offensive rebounds hurt the team.  We gave up seven baskets within two feet of the hoop in the fourth quarter.  Literally half of Atlanta's shots in the 4th were layups.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think there is a flaw in the depth.   I think the only real flaw is the lack of killer instinct when they are way up...

I think this is the key point (others have said similar things).  You would think they would have learned.  It happened last year in the playoffs also as noted, when we had a different coach.

I think the right coach could/should help with this but I don't think it is necessarily the coach's fault, at least not in this case.  I doubt he told the team, "there is 6:00 left and we have a nice lead, so start walking the ball up the court and run predictable sets".  On the other hand, it was clear that this was what they were doing so it would have been nice if the coach could have gotten through to them and got them to continue to push the pace, force the issue.

A different back up center sitting on the bench would not have changed the last 6:00 of the game.

I'm happy to concede that the blown lead is largely due to coaching and poor performance by the players on the floor.

At the same time, repeatedly allowing inside buckets with no resistance and allowing Atlanta to grab offensive rebounds hurt the team.  We gave up seven baskets within two feet of the hoop in the fourth quarter.  Literally half of Atlanta's shots in the 4th were layups.

The answer to that is to play with Horford and RWill.  The back up center would not have helped.

[Damiano Brancopreto]

I agree with the principle but nobody has a perfect roster. I am really puzzled from the few minutes Joe is giving to G.Williams.  especially considering we are in the 1st turn, that he can be an offensive factor, that they are physical...

[celticsclay]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

Roy I do agree with you that kornet and vonleh were jokes to be in the roster and it is a bigger joke that kornet gets a little playoff burn. However a fair question I have come to have over the season is who could we have really gotten? Aldridge tried out for the mavs and didn’t even get a ten day. Cousins tried out for the lakers and had the same result. Thompson who wasn’t probably an option for us, did get signed but doesn’t even play. So then we are talking about guys like howard or whiteside who have had character issues at points in there careers? Who did we theoretically miss out on. Maybe zeller? I don’t think love had any interest in signing here.

[slamtheking]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

Roy I do agree with you that kornet and vonleh were jokes to be in the roster and it is a bigger joke that kornet gets a little playoff burn. However a fair question I have come to have over the season is who could we have really gotten? Aldridge tried out for the mavs and didn’t even get a ten day. Cousins tried out for the lakers and had the same result. Thompson who wasn’t probably an option for us, did get signed but doesn’t even play. So then we are talking about guys like howard or whiteside who have had character issues at points in there careers? Who did we theoretically miss out on. Maybe zeller? I don’t think love had any interest in signing here.

this is the key to the roster issue this season.  who could we have gotten?

like many here I'm frustrated that the team had a number of financial options available to acquire better players -- the MLEs primarily --  but who was out there that we didn't get that would have both helped the team AND not cost us significant assets like rotation-caliber players?   No one was signed by another team that is helping them so we can't point to anyone on another roster that Brad missed nor can we point to someone acquired in a deal as a salary dump that cost the acquiring team nothing more than a second rounder or cash.   

[Atzar]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

Roy I do agree with you that kornet and vonleh were jokes to be in the roster and it is a bigger joke that kornet gets a little playoff burn. However a fair question I have come to have over the season is who could we have really gotten? Aldridge tried out for the mavs and didn’t even get a ten day. Cousins tried out for the lakers and had the same result. Thompson who wasn’t probably an option for us, did get signed but doesn’t even play. So then we are talking about guys like howard or whiteside who have had character issues at points in there careers? Who did we theoretically miss out on. Maybe zeller? I don’t think love had any interest in signing here.

this is the key to the roster issue this season.  who could we have gotten?

like many here I'm frustrated that the team had a number of financial options available to acquire better players -- the MLEs primarily --  but who was out there that we didn't get that would have both helped the team AND not cost us significant assets like rotation-caliber players?   No one was signed by another team that is helping them so we can't point to anyone on another roster that Brad missed nor can we point to someone acquired in a deal as a salary dump that cost the acquiring team nothing more than a second rounder or cash.

Poeltl is it, really.  Toronto got him for Khem Birch (who never played for the Spurs afaik), a first, and two seconds.  We could have matched or beaten that offer. 

But giving up that much draft capital for a probable rental would have been a difficult call to make, especially since it would be difficult to play Rob with him. 

[blink]

of course I took the question more as, can you find a 3rd big that you actually trust enough to play and right now Boston doesn't have that guy.  That is the problem.

Right.  Tatum is our de facto third big, which works fine in a lot of situations.  However, situationally not having a reliable option to defend and rebound hurts.

And, on nights when Horford or Timelord don't have it -- whether it be due to health, foul trouble, or just playing poorly -- it puts us into a bad situation. 

Also:  I have no idea how Grant Williams got dropped from the rotation completely.  How does a guy go from 26 minutes per night to zero?  He's no doubt a flawed player, but he can offer something as an 8th or 9th man.

This is my biggest gripe with our situation.  Grant played minutes ALL YEAR.  Why dump him once we hit the playoffs?  If you weren't comfortable playing Grant in the playoffs, then use the trade exceptions.  It honestly makes no sense. 

[Roy H.]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

Roy I do agree with you that kornet and vonleh were jokes to be in the roster and it is a bigger joke that kornet gets a little playoff burn. However a fair question I have come to have over the season is who could we have really gotten? Aldridge tried out for the mavs and didn’t even get a ten day. Cousins tried out for the lakers and had the same result. Thompson who wasn’t probably an option for us, did get signed but doesn’t even play. So then we are talking about guys like howard or whiteside who have had character issues at points in there careers? Who did we theoretically miss out on. Maybe zeller? I don’t think love had any interest in signing here.

this is the key to the roster issue this season.  who could we have gotten?

like many here I'm frustrated that the team had a number of financial options available to acquire better players -- the MLEs primarily --  but who was out there that we didn't get that would have both helped the team AND not cost us significant assets like rotation-caliber players?   No one was signed by another team that is helping them so we can't point to anyone on another roster that Brad missed nor can we point to someone acquired in a deal as a salary dump that cost the acquiring team nothing more than a second rounder or cash.

Poeltl is it, really.  Toronto got him for Khem Birch (who never played for the Spurs afaik), a first, and two seconds.  We could have matched or beaten that offer. 

But giving up that much draft capital for a probable rental would have been a difficult call to make, especially since it would be difficult to play Rob with him.

After watching what the Bruins did at the trade deadline, I'm wondering if giving up a #1 for a rental is really that bad.

[celticsclay]

The Celtics have arguably the deepest team of any contender.  But, there's still a pretty big hole on the roster that many have complained about since day one:  a backup center who can defend and rebound.

That problem has only gotten larger with Grant Williams completely out of the rotation.  Grant wasn't a rim protector or a rebounder, but last year he added switchable defense and was able to give Grant or Timelord a rest when needed.  Last night, our best option was Blake Griffin.  I love what he's added in the locker room, but it's unacceptable that he's our go-to big when we need stops and rebounds.

I will never, ever understand the decision to roll with Kornet and Vonleh out of training camp.

Roy I do agree with you that kornet and vonleh were jokes to be in the roster and it is a bigger joke that kornet gets a little playoff burn. However a fair question I have come to have over the season is who could we have really gotten? Aldridge tried out for the mavs and didn’t even get a ten day. Cousins tried out for the lakers and had the same result. Thompson who wasn’t probably an option for us, did get signed but doesn’t even play. So then we are talking about guys like howard or whiteside who have had character issues at points in there careers? Who did we theoretically miss out on. Maybe zeller? I don’t think love had any interest in signing here.

this is the key to the roster issue this season.  who could we have gotten?

like many here I'm frustrated that the team had a number of financial options available to acquire better players -- the MLEs primarily --  but who was out there that we didn't get that would have both helped the team AND not cost us significant assets like rotation-caliber players?   No one was signed by another team that is helping them so we can't point to anyone on another roster that Brad missed nor can we point to someone acquired in a deal as a salary dump that cost the acquiring team nothing more than a second rounder or cash.

Poeltl is it, really.  Toronto got him for Khem Birch (who never played for the Spurs afaik), a first, and two seconds.  We could have matched or beaten that offer. 

But giving up that much draft capital for a probable rental would have been a difficult call to make, especially since it would be difficult to play Rob with him.

After watching what the Bruins did at the trade deadline, I'm wondering if giving up a #1 for a rental is really that bad.

Did poetl make a difference with the raptors though? They were in desperate need of a center and he didn’t get them into even the top 8.