Is the Superfriends era over?

[Moranis]

Lebron wanted to stay in Cleveland that summer.  He just couldn't get Bosh to go there (the Cavs and Raptors had even worked out a trade had Bosh been willing to go there), which is why they ended up in Miami, who had for over a year, been planning on trying something big that summer.  The Heat weren't the only team though.  The Knicks and several other teams cleared out room for multiple free agents.  It was a major free agent summer and teams knew that to be appealing they had to be able to say they could land 2 free agents.  Because why would a guy leave a team with 1 star to go somewhere else to be in the same situation?  Miami though was able to keep Wade and clear out almost enough room for 2 more max deals.  The Heat went all in and it paid off, but it could have been an epic disaster for them if Lebron had been able to convince Chris to go to Cleveland.  Dwayne may have left Miami in that situation as well and gone to team up with Amar'e in NY (as an example) or maybe Amar'e goes down to Miami to play with Wade there.  Bosh being unwilling to go to Cleveland is what set that whole thing up (plus Riley gutting the team). 

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, I think the differences are clear.  When LeBron and Bosh joined Wade in Miami, it was player driven.  When Kyrie and Durant went to Brooklyn, it was player driven.  Kyrie and Durant then forced their way out but the team in PHO and in DAL is not based on player collaboration or whatever.  With any trade of a star, the receiving team is going to want to confirm the star has bought in on the new team, like KG to Boston or KD to PHO.

I don't know if that means the super-friends era is over though.  Maybe, but probably not.

As to judging the players or if the super-friends movement is good or bad for the league, I see a fine line.  Players become FA and can go where they want, nothing wrong with that.  And if two players are friends and both decide to sign with the same team, not sure that is necessarily bad either.  But when players force trades and that sort of thing, and still get paid massive amounts, that seems wrong.  It seems like when a player forces a trade, there should be some financial consequence or something.

As to team's wanting to assure a potential trade target has interest in the new team, that seems beneficial to both parties.  The player can be traded in any case.

[Kernewek]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

you missed my point completely.  You're getting hung up on what you consider to be the value of the assets -- known with 20/20 hindsight.  At that time, the #5 pick was a prime asset and Delonte was a solid young player.  Wally was salary filler.   Ray was coming off surgeries and not the player he once was.  As your own quote in your initial post stated - the league overall felt Danny got fleeced as did much of the fanbase.

KG needed to be talked into coming to Boston -- by ownership, management and Pierce.  There was no collusion between KG, Ray and Pierce to all get together in Boston to stack the odds of winning a title. 

That's the point I'm making and you missed.   This is not the situation that occurred with Miami where Bron, Bosh and Wade all colluded to get to Miami to stack the deck in their favor for titles.  The fact Miami gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to Miami had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in Cleveland or Toronto to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

Brooklyn with Kyrie and Durant -- similar issue where players colluded to play together to stack the deck in their favor.  Harden forcing a trade to get to Brooklyn to further stack those odds plays to this situation.

Yeah I'm sure KG was just calling Kobe to catch up with his friend and didn't care about winning a title. At the time the thinking was that we overpaid for Ray, but generally the value of those assets wasn't setting the world on fire.

[W8ting2McHale]

Yeah, KG coming to Boston wasn’t colluding. He was available and Ainge put together a big enough offer to make sure he didn’t go to LA. Ainge had to get Ray Allen first to even convince him the Celtics were a viable option because he wasn’t coming here to team up with just Paul Pierce.

On the other hand, once LeBron announced he was taking his talents to Miami, the Heat had the wheels turning to get Bosh there because that’s who D-Wade and Lebron had picked for the 3rd amigo. Paul Pierce didn’t tell Ainge to get KG and Ray because he needed them.

Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers are a good example of another failure. Kawhi won in San Antonio and Toronto, but he’s had no luck putting his own Superfriends team together in LA even though he hand picked Paul George.

Before Giannis won there was plenty of speculation he’d leave Milwaukee to form a Big-3 for a bigger market team, but the Bucks finally built a team around him. Plenty of posters here thought Ainge should ship out JB for Beal so he could team up with his buddy Tatum. That not happening is certainly something to consider on whether Beal decides to take the money and stay in DC.

[greg683x]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

i think we have different viewpoints on what player collusion is.  If my memory serves me correct, Kevin Garnett was told by Minny that they were rebuilding and would like to trade him, since KG had a no trade clause, it was essentially up to him to find a trade partner that KG wanted and could also provide Minny the assets to make it work.

For me, what youre pointing out from that interview is just Kevin Garnett hemming and hawing about who he would want to play with (which is what any free agent would do), and in the case of him calling Nash, thats KG doing his due diligence to see what kind of team he would have left to play with after the trade.  The fact that it was a team executive that ultimately convinced KG to come to Boston and not some pre planned player agreement proves there was no collusion.


Player collusion for me, is when players enter free agency already having an agreement with other players that theyre all going to sign together in a predetermined place, or even worse, force a trade to a predetermined place.  Theyre robbing other teams of a competitive chance to obtain their services.  Its terrible for small market teams. Its also terrible for the league from a competition standpoint, teams end up having stars that know theyre leaving next year to team up elsewhere so they have no incentive to perform in the playoffs, Kyrie his season here, and Lebron before he left for Miami are perfect examples.  Whether you think they quit or not, its impossible for that player to not already be looking towards the next season before the current one is finished and not have it affect their competitive drive

So, from my perspective....

KG, Pierce, Ray Allen - was all team asset management and the GM doing a great job to convince a player to waive his no trade clause to come to his team, which is his job

Wade, Lebron, Bosh - player collusion, its pretty well known that they all agreed to all leave their teams and sign with Miami

Kevin Durant to Golden State - pretty cowardly from a competitive standpoint, but not player collusion.  People give Durant a lot of crap for this but at least he was willing to hear a handful of teams out and nearly signed here instead

Anthony Davis to the Lakers - you can frame this one to fit either side of the arguement, frankly.  In my opinion, and him and Lebron talked and wanted to meet in LA, which is why he tried to force the trade there and no just wait until free agency, Lebron knew his window was starting to close

Kyrie, Durant, and Harden - Blatant player collusion.



For me, I see a distinct difference between the KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen scenario and the others listed.  Perhaps youll think Im just playing semantics, and perhaps I am, but for me, its a big difference.  Also couple this with the fact that Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen were in their 30s, they were beginning to exit the prime of their careers, it made more sense for them at this point

[Kernewek]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

i think we have different viewpoints on what player collusion is.  If my memory serves me correct, Kevin Garnett was told by Minny that they were rebuilding and would like to trade him, since KG had a no trade clause, it was essentially up to him to find a trade partner that KG wanted and could also provide Minny the assets to make it work.

For me, what youre pointing out from that interview is just Kevin Garnett hemming and hawing about who he would want to play with (which is what any free agent would do), and in the case of him calling Nash, thats KG doing his due diligence to see what kind of team he would have left to play with after the trade.  The fact that it was a team executive that ultimately convinced KG to come to Boston and not some pre planned player agreement proves there was no collusion.


Player collusion for me, is when players enter free agency already having an agreement with other players that theyre all going to sign together in a predetermined place, or even worse, force a trade to a predetermined place.  Theyre robbing other teams of a competitive chance to obtain their services.  Its terrible for small market teams. Its also terrible for the league from a competition standpoint, teams end up having stars that know theyre leaving next year to team up elsewhere so they have no incentive to perform in the playoffs, Kyrie his season here, and Lebron before he left for Miami are perfect examples.  Whether you think they quit or not, its impossible for that player to not already be looking towards the next season before the current one is finished and not have it affect their competitive drive

So, from my perspective....

KG, Pierce, Ray Allen - was all team asset management and the GM doing a great job to convince a player to waive his no trade clause to come to his team, which is his job

Wade, Lebron, Bosh - player collusion, its pretty well known that they all agreed to all leave their teams and sign with Miami

Kevin Durant to Golden State - pretty cowardly from a competitive standpoint, but not player collusion.  People give Durant a lot of crap for this but at least he was willing to hear a handful of teams out and nearly signed here instead

Anthony Davis to the Lakers - you can frame this one to fit either side of the arguement, frankly.  In my opinion, and him and Lebron talked and wanted to meet in LA, which is why he tried to force the trade there and no just wait until free agency, Lebron knew his window was starting to close

Kyrie, Durant, and Harden - Blatant player collusion.



For me, I see a distinct difference between the KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen scenario and the others listed.  Perhaps youll think Im just playing semantics, and perhaps I am, but for me, its a big difference.  Also couple this with the fact that Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen were in their 30s, they were beginning to exit the prime of their careers, it made more sense for them at this point

I've bolded it for you - but KG didn't have a no trade clause when he was leaving Minny - he did have one when he was traded to the Nets from Boston.

I will say, again, that your definition of player collusion is a slippery slope that's very difficult to prove. Pat Riley is just as important to the Heatles as LeBron or Bosh - saying otherwise is just rewriting history.

[Moranis]

And there most certainly wasn't a pre-arranged deal in Miami.  It has been widely reported that Lebron wanted CLEVELAND to add another player.  Lebron tried to get Bosh there, but Bosh didn't want to go to Cleveland.  The Cavs and Raptors had even worked out a trade package to make it happen should Lebron be able to convince Bosh to go there.  Lebron couldn't as Bosh just didn't want to go to Cleveland.  Lebron couldn't find anyone else that wanted to go there either.  Bosh decided he was going to Miami, and Wade and Bosh then convinced Lebron to join them there.  Lebron absolutely considered NY as they had room for him and someone else.  NY just couldn't find anyone other than Amar'e, who was older and more injured than Wade or Bosh, and obviously the Knicks wouldn't have had as good a team as the one in Miami. 

[kraidstar]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

you missed my point completely.  You're getting hung up on what you consider to be the value of the assets -- known with 20/20 hindsight.  At that time, the #5 pick was a prime asset and Delonte was a solid young player.  Wally was salary filler.   Ray was coming off surgeries and not the player he once was.  As your own quote in your initial post stated - the league overall felt Danny got fleeced as did much of the fanbase.

KG needed to be talked into coming to Boston -- by ownership, management and Pierce.  There was no collusion between KG, Ray and Pierce to all get together in Boston to stack the odds of winning a title. 

That's the point I'm making and you missed.   This is not the situation that occurred with Miami where Bron, Bosh and Wade all colluded to get to Miami to stack the deck in their favor for titles.  The fact Miami gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to Miami had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in Cleveland or Toronto to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

Brooklyn with Kyrie and Durant -- similar issue where players colluded to play together to stack the deck in their favor.  Harden forcing a trade to get to Brooklyn to further stack those odds plays to this situation.

TP

You nailed it

[celticsclay]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

you missed my point completely.  You're getting hung up on what you consider to be the value of the assets -- known with 20/20 hindsight.  At that time, the #5 pick was a prime asset and Delonte was a solid young player.  Wally was salary filler.   Ray was coming off surgeries and not the player he once was.  As your own quote in your initial post stated - the league overall felt Danny got fleeced as did much of the fanbase.

KG needed to be talked into coming to Boston -- by ownership, management and Pierce.  There was no collusion between KG, Ray and Pierce to all get together in Boston to stack the odds of winning a title. 

That's the point I'm making and you missed.   This is not the situation that occurred with Miami where Bron, Bosh and Wade all colluded to get to Miami to stack the deck in their favor for titles.  The fact Miami gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to Miami had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in Cleveland or Toronto to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

Brooklyn with Kyrie and Durant -- similar issue where players colluded to play together to stack the deck in their favor.  Harden forcing a trade to get to Brooklyn to further stack those odds plays to this situation.

TP

You nailed it

Yeah agreed. This also may open a whole can of worms but players going to a contender at the end of their careers was definitely a well established thing that has happened for quite a long time. Malone, nash, Payton to the lakers. Pippin, Barkley to the rockets. Kg definitely had the most in the tank and was still in the tail end of his prime, but that was not the perception of Ray at the time coming off two ankle surgeries and a pretty forgettable Seattle stint. Lebron and Bosh were in their absolute prime which is what made their move so unique and changed the culture of the nba in a way that still exists today.

[Kernewek]

If by 'open a can of worms' you mean 'repeat back what I said earlier in the thread in an attempt to disprove what I said earlier in the thread', then sure  :

There's some merit to discussing an actual difference between the teams (the relative age of the players compared to Miami), but without the Celtics Big 3 the Heatles most likely never materialise, because they don't need to make it past the Celtics' Big 3.

So, yeah, no one is arguing that the Celtics Big 3 and the Heatles, KD & Kyrie & Harden, and so on are exactly the same. Just that the space between the former and the latter is a lot less clear when you try to paint the meaningful difference as 'player collusion'. It's really not a particularly complicated point unless you want to intentionally misread what I wrote the first time.

Let's be real, you could absolutely reframe the below as talking about Boston, or indeed any other NBA city about more or less any trade when a star leaves town. It's essentially a full paragraph of hand-waving and (incorrect) equivocation :

The fact _____ gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to _____ had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in _____ or ______ to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

[Moranis]

McGrady and Hill teamed up and they very nearly got Duncan to join them.  That was long before the Heat.  It wasn't a new concept, the Heat just wrangled and finagled enough to make it happen.

Edit: the Heat also had way more success than the Magic because Hill just couldn't stay healthy, though if Duncan would have actually gone there Hill wouldn't have mattered.

[celticsclay]

If by 'open a can of worms' you mean 'repeat back what I said earlier in the thread in an attempt to disprove what I said earlier in the thread', then sure  :

There's some merit to discussing an actual difference between the teams (the relative age of the players compared to Miami), but without the Celtics Big 3 the Heatles most likely never materialise, because they don't need to make it past the Celtics' Big 3.

So, yeah, no one is arguing that the Celtics Big 3 and the Heatles, KD & Kyrie & Harden, and so on are exactly the same. Just that the space between the former and the latter is a lot less clear when you try to paint the meaningful difference as 'player collusion'. It's really not a particularly complicated point unless you want to intentionally misread what I wrote the first time.

Let's be real, you could absolutely reframe the below as talking about Boston, or indeed any other NBA city about more or less any trade when a star leaves town. It's essentially a full paragraph of hand-waving and (incorrect) equivocation :

The fact _____ gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to _____ had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in _____ or ______ to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

I really don’t know what you are trying to do here. I responded I just agreed with two other posters about what they said. If you have issues with their argument take it up with them.

This quote you have included is not something I have said so I am not sure why you want me to explain it or comment on it.

[celticsclay]

McGrady and Hill teamed up and they very nearly got Duncan to join them.  That was long before the Heat.  It wasn't a new concept, the Heat just wrangled and finagled enough to make it happen.

Edit: the Heat also had way more success than the Magic because Hill just couldn't stay healthy, though if Duncan would have actually gone there Hill wouldn't have mattered.

This is an interesting point and I do agree with you if duncan had actually signed there that would have been close to the Beatles. We do have to remember that McGrady was not a star when he signed there. He was coming off a season averaging 15 points 6 rebounds and 3 assists and was shooting 27% from 3 on limited attempts. So
It was really a star and an exciting young guy with a lot of upside. That is quite a bit different than three perennial all stars and two top 5 players.

[slamtheking]

If by 'open a can of worms' you mean 'repeat back what I said earlier in the thread in an attempt to disprove what I said earlier in the thread', then sure  :

There's some merit to discussing an actual difference between the teams (the relative age of the players compared to Miami), but without the Celtics Big 3 the Heatles most likely never materialise, because they don't need to make it past the Celtics' Big 3.

So, yeah, no one is arguing that the Celtics Big 3 and the Heatles, KD & Kyrie & Harden, and so on are exactly the same. Just that the space between the former and the latter is a lot less clear when you try to paint the meaningful difference as 'player collusion'. It's really not a particularly complicated point unless you want to intentionally misread what I wrote the first time.

Let's be real, you could absolutely reframe the below as talking about Boston, or indeed any other NBA city about more or less any trade when a star leaves town. It's essentially a full paragraph of hand-waving and (incorrect) equivocation :

The fact _____ gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to _____ had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in _____ or ______ to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

you continue to fail to make your case.  The KG/Ray/PP situation does not fit that scenario whatsoever.  KG and Ray were not free agents looking to leave their teams nor did they discuss joining up in Boston with Pierce.  KG and Ray were still under contract to their teams and were not making statements about wanting to leave or be traded.  in fact, there were extensive discussions with KG to convince him to accept a trade to Boston and be open to signing an extension.

[SHAQATTACK]

No more BFF s