More Brogdon Please…

[Goldstar88]

Can we please get Malcolm 4-6 more minutes a game? Here’s how the PG’s compare:

Smart in 34mpg: 10.4pts, 3.6rebs, 6ast while shooting 34% from the field and 22% from 3pt.
Per 36: 10.4pts, 6.2ast, 3.6rebs.

White in 27mpg: 8.7pts, 3.4rebs, 3.1ast while shooting 43% from the field and 42% from 3pt.
Per 36: 11.6pts, 4.2ast, 4.6rebs

Brogdon in 23mpg: 13.6pts, 3.3rebs, 3.6ast while shooting 46% from the field and 37% from 3pt.
Per 36: 21.1pts, 5.6ast, 5.1rebs

Smart has not looked good this year and White is an inconsistent player…Brogdon is clearly superior to both.

[bdm860]

I have to imagine a big part of the reason Brogdon's ppg per-36 are so much higher is because he's playing with the 2nd unit.

Give him more minutes with Brown/Tatum and his stats probably drop.

[Goldstar88]

I have to imagine a big part of the reason Brogdon's ppg per-36 are so much higher is because he's playing with the 2nd unit.

Give him more minutes with Brown/Tatum and his stats probably drop.

That’s fair, but I still think he’s quite a bit better than Smart and White. Marcus is averaging 10.4pts on 9.6 shot attempts per game. Awful.

[Moranis]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall. 

[nickagneta]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Agree on both counts. More Brogdon and move Grant to the starting unit. I think it's time this board starts to acknowledge just how good a player Grant is and admit he actually is good enough to be starter material on a contending team.

Long term, if Robert can ever be healthy, an All-Drafted-By-Ainge starting group of Smart-Brown-Tatum-Williams-Williams could be a contending starting unit for a long time.

[Goldstar88]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

[#1P4P]

As well as Brogdon’s individual stats are and as polished as his offensive game is, his advanced lineup stats have been poor. His NET RTG in most 2,3,4 player lineups have been negative albeit in a small sample size.

Meanwhile, the starting lineup has logged the 9th most minutes for a 5-player lineup and it’s a +11 NET RTG. Again, small sample size, but speaks to what reality has been, potential chemistry issues, and the devaluing of Smart and White’s contributions.

The C’s are #8 in team OFF RTG, #18 in team DEF RTG, and the starting lineup has been excellent on defense. All that to say, continuing to bring along Brogdon slowly is the way to go; on the other hand, Grant and Hauser should have a serious discussion with Mazzulla on the minutes distribution.

[Moranis]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

it isn't about Grant, it is about Tatum and to a lesser extent Brown.  Tatum needs to move back to the wing.  He isn't as good at PF and it wears him down.  Your best player should be playing his best position.

[Celtics4ever]

Grant has worked hard and turned around his career.    He is not a viable option at C, he can't rim protect or rebound at that position.   He sometimes struggles with this as a PF as well.    Though, he seems to have worked hard on driving and post offense this off season.

I like how we are using Brogdon.  He is doing fine.   

Our real problem is we miss Rob and his defense.   Kornet can't provide this given what we have seen at present.   Every player has weaknesses as do all our bench players like Blake and Vonleh.   Hauser is a poor defender as well.    A team can have one on the court and do well, maybe two but when three bad defenders are on our court at the same it causes problems that other teams attack.   Coach Mazz platooning puts too many bad defenders on the court at once.   He is also killing Al Horford with all those minutes.

Some of this is due to injuries.  We don't have Rob nor Gallinari.  Which means his options are poor at best.

I am for signing Aldridge if he has anything left in the tank and his heart can take it.   He can rim protect, rebound and shoot.   But if his heart is bad then we should not.  It's too early to make a trade as teams are not desperate yet.

[Goldstar88]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

it isn't about Grant, it is about Tatum and to a lesser extent Brown.  Tatum needs to move back to the wing.  He isn't as good at PF and it wears him down.  Your best player should be playing his best position.

Tatum’s averaging 30pts, 8rebs, 4ast at PF. Looks like he’s doing fine to me. He played almost the entire season last year at the SF and had a bum shoulder for a good portion of the playoffs. Guess playing the 3 wears him down as well.

[Moranis]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

it isn't about Grant, it is about Tatum and to a lesser extent Brown.  Tatum needs to move back to the wing.  He isn't as good at PF and it wears him down.  Your best player should be playing his best position.

Tatum’s averaging 30pts, 8rebs, 4ast at PF. Looks like he’s doing fine to me. He played almost the entire season last year at the SF and had a bum shoulder for a good portion of the playoffs. Guess playing the 3 wears him down as well.

7 games in.  This is about the whole season.  And as you say last year, playing SF, he got hurt.  What do you think is going to happen by the end of this year if he plays PF most of the time? And even with the 7 games in, Tatum has faded down the stretch of the 3 losses.  He has also played a lot better in the 2 game with 3+ days rest.  And, his on/off differential per 100 for the first time in his career is negative (and it is well into the negative at -11.2).  Last year Tatum's on/off differential per 100 possessions was +13.8.  Even early in the year before the team got on fire, he was still well into the positive.  Tatum is playing out of position.  He is playing against bigger guys.  The team isn't rebounding as well, is crowding the backcourt, and generally isn't playing as well.  That team is quite simply better with Brown at SG and Tatum at SF.

[nickagneta]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

it isn't about Grant, it is about Tatum and to a lesser extent Brown.  Tatum needs to move back to the wing.  He isn't as good at PF and it wears him down.  Your best player should be playing his best position.

Tatum’s averaging 30pts, 8rebs, 4ast at PF. Looks like he’s doing fine to me. He played almost the entire season last year at the SF and had a bum shoulder for a good portion of the playoffs. Guess playing the 3 wears him down as well.

7 games in.  This is about the whole season.  And as you say last year, playing SF, he got hurt.  What do you think is going to happen by the end of this year if he plays PF most of the time? And even with the 7 games in, Tatum has faded down the stretch of the 3 losses.  He has also played a lot better in the 2 game with 3+ days rest.  And, his on/off differential per 100 for the first time in his career is negative (and it is well into the negative at -11.2).  Last year Tatum's on/off differential per 100 possessions was +13.8.  Even early in the year before the team got on fire, he was still well into the positive.  Tatum is playing out of position.  He is playing against bigger guys.  The team isn't rebounding as well, is crowding the backcourt, and generally isn't playing as well.  That team is quite simply better with Brown at SG and Tatum at SF.

Your assumption is that Tatum playing power forward forces him to play against bigger, stronger individuals that will cause him more wear and tear than players who play SF. I'm not buying that.

On offense, Tatum is a perimeter player who also drives the lane. He is seldom guarded by big, burly PF types but more players with his stature. He can take a beating when driving the lane because of the people he is driving into, but that isn't going to change whether he plays SF or PF. A quick look at the matchups he has had this season shows the myriad of people teams match him up with. It's all over the place because teams don't solely cover him with larger, stronger players.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/head-to-head

And on defense, the C's do a great job(always have) of hiding him on smaller, less skilled, offensive players to preserve him for the offensive side of the ball. When it comes to guarding larger type PFs, the Celtics coaches have very consistently given that assignment to players like Brown, Grant and Smart....not Tatum.

For these reasons, I really am not buying your assertion that Tatum needs to play SF to preserve himself because he generally isn't playing versus traditional PF types on either end of the court.

Also, let's face it, Tatum is not a small man at, possibly a conservative, 6'8" 220lbs. His muscle mass has been built up to be able to absorb NBA physicality.

Tatum will succeed and be fine long term playing either position, of that I have no doubt.

[Celtics4ever]

I think he has the height to play Power Forward, he is listed at 6-8 but is taller when you see him on court at least taller than guys who claim that height.  His weight is 210 lbs.   I believe those are his height and weight when he entered the league.  He looks taller than that now and looks like he has added some weight.  He was listed at  6"8" and 205 lbs at Duke.

https://goduke.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/jayson-tatum/4423

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369

So the height is there as Power Forwards average height is  6"8.2" and he is bit taller than the average SF who average  6'6.4"inches in height.  On weight it is a different story as the average PF weight is 227 Lbs with SF the average is 213lbs.

https://www.thehoopsgeek.com/average-nba-height/

So what we have is a guy with power forward height but no weight assuming the weight listed on the NBA site is correct.   He has a skill set of a SF as I see it, he can do all SF things well.      He can do some PF things well and can block shots well and rebound well but is more of a finesse player at the position than a brute.  For the record Dennis Rodman was  6'7" and 210lbs and he did fine at PF.  He could bang at that weight just fine against bigger player.  Tatum is no Rodman as he is not a banger and is way more talented at everything save defense and rebounding.

One thing that I want to note is that he can be quite the mismatch with either position.   He is quicker than PF, taller than SG.   

Horford is who should be our PF once Rob comes back, not Tatum.   We do not have a viable starting PF if we move Tatum to SF.    Please don't day Grant who has found his niche.   He can't rebound at the four hole that well at all.   Kornet is another person I am doubtful about starting.  Vonleh, Blake and Kabengele are dicey as well and Hauser is a no go for his rebounds.  All these guys have gifts and weaknesses at their positions.   This is a position of need unless we get a young C to move Al back to his position at PF.  I just see that happening.

There is no easy answer.   I think it will be a "what if season".   What if Rob could play?   What if Gallo did not get hurt.   But we have to find solutions in the mean time.

[Goldstar88]

I have no issue with more Brogdon, but do think bdm is correct in that his numbers will fall if he plays more with Tatum and Brown.

That said, I believe the team needs to start Grant Williams and move White to the bench.  I think that would make the team better overall.

Grant started a handful of games last year and he was not good. I like him off the bench, he’s not a starting caliber player.

it isn't about Grant, it is about Tatum and to a lesser extent Brown.  Tatum needs to move back to the wing.  He isn't as good at PF and it wears him down.  Your best player should be playing his best position.

Tatum’s averaging 30pts, 8rebs, 4ast at PF. Looks like he’s doing fine to me. He played almost the entire season last year at the SF and had a bum shoulder for a good portion of the playoffs. Guess playing the 3 wears him down as well.

7 games in.  This is about the whole season.  And as you say last year, playing SF, he got hurt.  What do you think is going to happen by the end of this year if he plays PF most of the time? And even with the 7 games in, Tatum has faded down the stretch of the 3 losses.  He has also played a lot better in the 2 game with 3+ days rest.  And, his on/off differential per 100 for the first time in his career is negative (and it is well into the negative at -11.2).  Last year Tatum's on/off differential per 100 possessions was +13.8.  Even early in the year before the team got on fire, he was still well into the positive.  Tatum is playing out of position.  He is playing against bigger guys.  The team isn't rebounding as well, is crowding the backcourt, and generally isn't playing as well.  That team is quite simply better with Brown at SG and Tatum at SF.

Your assumption is that Tatum playing power forward forces him to play against bigger, stronger individuals that will cause him more wear and tear than players who play SF. I'm not buying that.

On offense, Tatum is a perimeter player who also drives the lane. He is seldom guarded by big, burly PF types but more players with his stature. He can take a beating when driving the lane because of the people he is driving into, but that isn't going to change whether he plays SF or PF. A quick look at the matchups he has had this season shows the myriad of people teams match him up with. It's all over the place because teams don't solely cover him with larger, stronger players.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/head-to-head

And on defense, the C's do a great job(always have) of hiding him on smaller, less skilled, offensive players to preserve him for the offensive side of the ball. When it comes to guarding larger type PFs, the Celtics coaches have very consistently given that assignment to players like Brown, Grant and Smart....not Tatum.

For these reasons, I really am not buying your assertion that Tatum needs to play SF to preserve himself because he generally isn't playing versus traditional PF types on either end of the court.

Also, let's face it, Tatum is not a small man at, possibly a conservative, 6'8" 220lbs. His muscle mass has been built up to be able to absorb NBA physicality.

Tatum will succeed and be fine long term playing either position, of that I have no doubt.

Tp, Nick. Couldn’t agree more.

[RodyTur10]

As well as Brogdon’s individual stats are and as polished as his offensive game is, his advanced lineup stats have been poor. His NET RTG in most 2,3,4 player lineups have been negative albeit in a small sample size.

Meanwhile, the starting lineup has logged the 9th most minutes for a 5-player lineup and it’s a +11 NET RTG. Again, small sample size, but speaks to what reality has been, potential chemistry issues, and the devaluing of Smart and White’s contributions.

The C’s are #8 in team OFF RTG, #18 in team DEF RTG, and the starting lineup has been excellent on defense. All that to say, continuing to bring along Brogdon slowly is the way to go; on the other hand, Grant and Hauser should have a serious discussion with Mazzulla on the minutes distribution.

Brogdon has been subpar defensively so far. The eyetest confirms this data.
Last night Williams got minutes at the end of the game over Brogdon due to his defensive superiority.
Mazzula is hardly playing Pritchard because of depth at his position and lack of defensive switchability.

Anyway, we're very early in the season, but Brogdon has been a bit disappointing. Same goes for Smart and White.
It makes sense to look for a quality big or swing for one or more of these contracts.