Author Topic: Where did our defense go?  (Read 7349 times)

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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2022, 01:32:37 PM »

Offline LilRip

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It seems like coaching philosophy. I thought from watching the game that the C’s were trying some new schemes and they got burned over and over again. That’s what the 1st half of the season is for, I suppose.

And also, I think the focus on fast break offense has significantly weakened the defense. There’s only so much energy to go around. If we’re focused on running, the defense will suffer.
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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2022, 05:03:37 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Dwight Howard would be a good stop-gap starting center for 15-20mpg to help set a defensive tone to start the game. A shot-blocker and a twin defensive big alignment next to Horford.

Without trying to defend Brad, I think a lot of times we might name names that we think would be great but those players don't want to play for us on a salary that we can afford to pay them. Or maybe they have the wrong mindset for the team, who knows. But we can only look from the outside and make judgments on what we can see.

Also, when I looked at the different lineups we have put out, I picked some of the ones where we have conceded the most points - I don't find it surprising that Vonleh and Brogdon feature in many of them. They are new to the team and it's entirely possible they are still getting used to their teammates, and where to be defensively, and when to switch or who to switch on and who not to. While pulling out the data for my OP I wanted to caution on the sample size being small - 4 games is too small to base some conclusions on. But with that said, here's all the lineups we've used this year:



The starting lineup with White is the most used lineup by far, with 45 mins, and is giving up 109 points. I can kind of understand that given that while it's a switchy lineup, it's also a small lineup and it's outscoring teams by 5 points a game. The lineup where Vonleh is first off the bench to replace Al is the 2nd most used lineup with 15 mins this year and it's giving up 120 points. If Noah is to continue as a key part of the rotation playing 20+ minutes as the Theis replacement, they definitely need to keep an eye on how he is being used and if that trend continues, even if that lineup is also outscoring teams. So as long as they are shooting well they've been winning, but when our shot deserts us, we see what happens - like in Chicago.
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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2022, 06:01:50 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I think it’s mostly a small sample-size issue.  I’ve seen concerns here posted about the lack of someone to replace Rob, and while that’s true to an extent, last year the Celtics allowed 43.2 points in the paint per 100 possessions.  This year it’s 43.8, so that’s not a meaningful difference in 4 games.  On the other hand, teams are shooting 40% from 3.  Some of this may be due to scheme (we’re having Horford play more drop coverage than he did last year), but a lot of that is just luck and isn’t sustainable by opponents.  People may want to point to second-chance points, where we’ve fallen from giving up 12.8 per 100 to 15.3, but again, through four games that’s a pretty small sample size.  Our DREB% is higher this year than last, even after the game against Chicago.

Where we do miss Rob (and where I don’t think we could have acquired a viable replacement because he was pretty unique in this) is our ability to defend the mid-range.  Rob could cover so much ground that he really closed off mid-range jumpers.  We don’t have anyone who can do that now, but there are few in the league as capable as he was on that.  Mostly I think we’re just not applying the same level of ball pressure as we did last year, which helps create these openings, and I think that will be fixed before long.

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2022, 08:19:11 AM »

Online Moranis

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I think it’s mostly a small sample-size issue.  I’ve seen concerns here posted about the lack of someone to replace Rob, and while that’s true to an extent, last year the Celtics allowed 43.2 points in the paint per 100 possessions.  This year it’s 43.8, so that’s not a meaningful difference in 4 games.  On the other hand, teams are shooting 40% from 3.  Some of this may be due to scheme (we’re having Horford play more drop coverage than he did last year), but a lot of that is just luck and isn’t sustainable by opponents.  People may want to point to second-chance points, where we’ve fallen from giving up 12.8 per 100 to 15.3, but again, through four games that’s a pretty small sample size.  Our DREB% is higher this year than last, even after the game against Chicago.

Where we do miss Rob (and where I don’t think we could have acquired a viable replacement because he was pretty unique in this) is our ability to defend the mid-range.  Rob could cover so much ground that he really closed off mid-range jumpers.  We don’t have anyone who can do that now, but there are few in the league as capable as he was on that.  Mostly I think we’re just not applying the same level of ball pressure as we did last year, which helps create these openings, and I think that will be fixed before long.
It is a lot easier to pressure the ball when you have someone down low that can defend the paint if the guy you are pressuring gets around you.  That is where not having a shot blocker can cause all sorts of problems to your overall defense.  You are correct that very few can defend the mid range (and the interior) like Rob can, but there are guys that can defend the paint that are available and I believe that would help a great deal with the overall defense.  You need a guy that can defend the rim and make it difficult for people driving to the hole.  Boston doesn't have that without Rob, but could as there are several big man shot blockers still available.
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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2022, 08:28:42 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Last reported, to the doctors to get a platelet injection.

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2022, 08:42:47 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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New coach, new system, lots of minutes for guys new to the system, injuries. Also very early in the season. I wouldnt worry about it too much. Now if Brad doesnt address the backup big problem in the buyout season, Id be disappointed. But Im guessing we didnt get anyone because of different reason, who knows if the targets wanted to even sign or for how much they are willing to sign.

Its too early to panic. And these early losses are important so they find out the problems early and they can address it.

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2022, 08:54:25 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I think it’s mostly a small sample-size issue.  I’ve seen concerns here posted about the lack of someone to replace Rob, and while that’s true to an extent, last year the Celtics allowed 43.2 points in the paint per 100 possessions.  This year it’s 43.8, so that’s not a meaningful difference in 4 games.  On the other hand, teams are shooting 40% from 3.  Some of this may be due to scheme (we’re having Horford play more drop coverage than he did last year), but a lot of that is just luck and isn’t sustainable by opponents.  People may want to point to second-chance points, where we’ve fallen from giving up 12.8 per 100 to 15.3, but again, through four games that’s a pretty small sample size.  Our DREB% is higher this year than last, even after the game against Chicago.

Where we do miss Rob (and where I don’t think we could have acquired a viable replacement because he was pretty unique in this) is our ability to defend the mid-range.  Rob could cover so much ground that he really closed off mid-range jumpers.  We don’t have anyone who can do that now, but there are few in the league as capable as he was on that.  Mostly I think we’re just not applying the same level of ball pressure as we did last year, which helps create these openings, and I think that will be fixed before long.
It is a lot easier to pressure the ball when you have someone down low that can defend the paint if the guy you are pressuring gets around you.  That is where not having a shot blocker can cause all sorts of problems to your overall defense.  You are correct that very few can defend the mid range (and the interior) like Rob can, but there are guys that can defend the paint that are available and I believe that would help a great deal with the overall defense.  You need a guy that can defend the rim and make it difficult for people driving to the hole.  Boston doesn't have that without Rob, but could as there are several big man shot blockers still available.

It's easier, but the Celtics have a bunch of good wings and guards that don't need that extra support.

Again, it's sample size.  The Celtics are currently 2nd in the league in FG% at the rim.  Last year they were 6th.

Currently teams are shooting 52.6 % from 10-14 feet against the C's.  That would be a record, by several percentage points, if it held up.  (No one's ever even allowed 50%).
Teams are shooting 55.3% from 15-19 feet against the C's.  That too, would be a record by several percentage points (again, teams always allow below 50%).
Teams are shooting 50% from 20-24 feet.  Yet again, that would be a record.

All of those numbers are going to come down, because it's a four-game anomaly.  In none of those stats, which again would be full-season records by wide margins, are the Celtics currently the worst in the league.  Weird things happen to teams over four games.

The at-rim numbers are going to get a little bit worse.  The mid-range and 3-point numbers are going to get a lot better, even if the Celtics do nothing differently.  That doesn't mean there aren't some adjustments to make, and with 4 days between games after a 3-in-4 stretch on the road, one should expect some adjustments. 

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2022, 08:59:54 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I'd be curious to see the number of open shots we're giving up due to double teams, compared to last year.  We may be able to keep opposing bigs from scoring inside due to sending help, but I'm curious if we're then getting burned on the outside.


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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2022, 09:29:32 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I'd be curious to see the number of open shots we're giving up due to double teams, compared to last year.  We may be able to keep opposing bigs from scoring inside due to sending help, but I'm curious if we're then getting burned on the outside.

Last year we allowed 20.4 wide open shots per game.  Teams had an eFG% of 56.4 on those shots.
This year we're allowing 20.5 wide open shots per game.  Teams are shooting 59.2 eFG on those shots.

Last year we allowed 27.2 open shots per game.  Teams had a 50.1 eFG.
This year we're allowing 21.8 open shots per game.  Teams have a 56.3 eFG.

Last year we allowed 34.0 tight shots (nearest defender 2-4 feet away) per game.  Teams had an eFG of 48.4.
This year we're allowing 39.3 tight shots per game.  Teams have an eFG of 55.1.

Last year we allowed 6.4 very tight shots (nearest defender 0-2 feet away) per game.  Teams had an eFG of 39.3
This year we're allowing 7.0 very tight shots per game.  Teams have an eFG of 28.6.

This doesn't exactly speak to your question about double teams, but it's clear we're allowing fewer open and wide open shots, and creating more tight shots.  Teams are shooting better at every amount of space we've given their shooters.  Certainly a little of that is not having Rob, but again, the reason we miss Rob is because he's uniquely good at closing to shooters (so those wide open shooters rush a bit), and guys like him aren't readily available, if at all available.  But I think a lot of this is just luck and will return to normal.  That shooting against tight defense isn't going to last, for instance.

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2022, 03:25:09 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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We miss Rob quite a bit.  Rim protection is severely lacking without him.  Al seems a step slower, Kornet never did protect the rim, nor did Vonleh really.  Grant is too short to do this, which means we should give Kabengele some run. 

Mazullo seems to like small ball and the results have not been good.   He also routinely plays several poor defenders together whereas Udoka tried to hide them

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2022, 04:03:29 PM »

Online Moranis

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We miss Rob quite a bit.  Rim protection is severely lacking without him.  Al seems a step slower, Kornet never did protect the rim, nor did Vonleh really.  Grant is too short to do this, which means we should give Kabengele some run. 

Mazullo seems to like small ball and the results have not been good.   He also routinely plays several poor defenders together whereas Udoka tried to hide them
I don't think Maz likes small ball so much as the makeup of the roster requires small ball.
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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2022, 04:23:28 PM »

Offline ozgod

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We miss Rob quite a bit.  Rim protection is severely lacking without him.  Al seems a step slower, Kornet never did protect the rim, nor did Vonleh really.  Grant is too short to do this, which means we should give Kabengele some run. 

Mazullo seems to like small ball and the results have not been good.   He also routinely plays several poor defenders together whereas Udoka tried to hide them
I don't think Maz likes small ball so much as the makeup of the roster requires small ball.

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Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2022, 02:01:07 AM »

Offline iadera

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A loss to Bulls is not a problem as a loss. It just worries me how we led by 18 and then trailed by 15 in the same half. Even worse, we never bounced back till the rest of the game. What a hell happened?

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2022, 02:08:54 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I’ve got this feeling our defense was really Mazz and Will Hardy, not Ime. Mazz will eventually get our D back on track with his replacement of Hardy. Tough defense is our identity and why we were so good last year. We’ll get it back soon.

Small sample size, of course. 3-1 extrapolates to 62-20, so definitely plenty of reasons to not be bummed by a loss.

Re: Where did our defense go?
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2022, 11:21:08 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Smart seems to attribute it to effort (including from himself) and the team being a little too reliant on Williams as a backstop:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/marcus-smart-dishes-fixing-celtics-defense-jaylen-browns-mvp-chances-and-more

It's a very small sample size, but:  Off Rtg: 119.8 (3rd of 30) Def Rtg: 118.7 (28th of 30) Net Rtg: +1.0 (15th of 30)


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