Author Topic: Kareem blasts Kyrie  (Read 7682 times)

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Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2022, 03:15:49 AM »

Offline gouki88

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2022, 04:01:49 AM »

Offline JSD

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2022, 08:31:47 AM »

Offline td450

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

Perhaps you should look at it this way:

The NBA is a business and it is based on people being able to perform over a specified schedule. They don't play pickup. A communicable disease threatens that business model. The threat to life is the most important concern, but other health concerns and at the base of it, the operating tolerances of the league also matter.

Just having too many players and team personnel getting sick during the season is a major threat to the business model. That's where all that money comes from. With communicable diseases, getting the transmission rate below a certain threshold is the difference between whether infections spread widely or not. This is not just about death. It's about managing a problem effectively in total.

This could kick off another round of arguments about efficacy, but the prevailing medical opinion is that vaccines do reduce the transmission rate by roughly half, and definitely reduce recovery problems.

Bodily autonomy isn't social autonomy. My freedom to not work with you because I think you are careless is also a freedom. He did what he wanted to do, and got paid fewer millions of dollars, because he didn't support the business model. No one put him in jail.

If every player acted like Kyrie, the league would have failed to deliver its product. Not because the players would die, but just because the NBA wouldn't be able to operate in a higher infection environment. And even if you disagree with that analysis, the league, and really any business should have the right to make such judgements about operating during an infectious disease pandemic.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 08:37:37 AM by td450 »

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2022, 06:39:05 PM »

Offline gouki88

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.
What utter dribble. Just falsehood after falsehood. Continue down your conspiracist rabbit holes as you please, nobody takes you or your ilk seriously - except as a serious threat to civil society.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2022, 07:17:54 PM »

Offline moiso

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Irving got paid his full salary despite playing in half of the games.  I don't understand the narrative that he made any kind of sacrifice.  I'd like to get paid my regular amount and work half of the days.

As far as a contract extension, he was a bad apple in other ways over several years that would make a team hesitant to sign him long term.  He didn't sacrifice anything.


Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2022, 12:24:17 PM »

Offline Big333223

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Once more: If your opinion is based on wrong information, then your opinion is wrong. Pretending that any opinion, no matter how uninformed, is equal to any other opinion is foolish.
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Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2022, 12:26:37 PM »

Offline JSD

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Once more: If your opinion is based on wrong information, then your opinion is wrong. Pretending that any opinion, no matter how uninformed, is equal to any other opinion is foolish.

Yeah but Kyrie was right about Covid and the vaccine

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2022, 12:36:16 PM »

Offline Big333223

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Once more: If your opinion is based on wrong information, then your opinion is wrong. Pretending that any opinion, no matter how uninformed, is equal to any other opinion is foolish.

Yeah but Kyrie was right about Covid and the vaccine
No, he wasn't. Get a grip.
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Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2022, 12:53:33 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

My neighbor growing up passed away from Covid without underlying conditions. He was in his early thirties and healthy. I’d love to hear you say this garbage to his wife and kids.

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2022, 01:25:03 PM »

Offline JSD

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

My neighbor growing up passed away from Covid without underlying conditions. He was in his early thirties and healthy. I’d love to hear you say this garbage to his wife and kids.

Ad hominem attacks and anecdotes. That’s what I’m getting from you these last couple days. Of course there’s a certain moderator who sets the tone for this stuff.

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2022, 02:03:27 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I get JSD's point, at least regarding what I see as his main point.

It takes courage (or insanity) for somebody to stand up for their beliefs in the face of overwhelming pressure.  Studies have shown that most people don't do that; it's why there are very few 11-1 holdouts in jury trials.  Eventually, people compromise their beliefs due to peer / societal pressure.

The strength of will is unusual, and when it comes at personal sacrifice, perhaps it's something to be admired.  Of course, the counterargument is that it's simply stubbornness in the face of reason, and that one person's inaccurate opinion shouldn't allow them to be a risk to others.  That's why there's still a debate about this, months and years later.  But, on a basic level, "give me liberty or give me death" is a viewpoint that America has historically embraced.


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Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2022, 03:26:01 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

My neighbor growing up passed away from Covid without underlying conditions. He was in his early thirties and healthy. I’d love to hear you say this garbage to his wife and kids.

Ad hominem attacks and anecdotes. That’s what I’m getting from you these last couple days. Of course there’s a certain moderator who sets the tone for this stuff.

What is wrong with this anecdote? You’re saying things that are a) false and b) dangerous.

For some, this is a quasi-intellectual thought experiment. To others, these are real life events with real world implications. I don’t think it’s funny when people have such little concerns for other Americans.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 03:52:22 PM by MarcusSmartFanClub »

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2022, 04:14:27 PM »

Offline gouki88

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In recent years, Kyrie Irving and Jonathan Isaac are the only NBA players who have actually suffered for their beliefs. They stood their ground and felt the negative consequences as a result. Regardless of their respective positions and whether or not I agree, I respect that.
Why? Suffering because of stupid beliefs only makes them stupider. Nothing worth respect.

I happen to believe in body autonomy and freedom, so I align with both, but even if I didn’t I would respect their principles.
No, you happen to believe in your own self-concerned conceptions of bodily autonomy and freedom. Different thing

Right. Because the right to or not to take a medication is not a freedom, it’s a “self concerned” freedom. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
When it is directly related to you killing other people, yes, that is a self-concerned freedom.

I'd rather sound foolish than heartless, but you're somehow nailing both :)

They are two of the best young athlete in the world, Covid poses no risk to them. In fact, there is a good argument that the vaccine actually poses more risk to them. So why would they take the vaccine? Because unvaccinated are going to kill the vaccinated? What an asinine like of thinking. Whatever. I have to interest in continuing this Covid conversation.

My larger point is that Kyrie stood for his beliefs and suffered real consequences, potentially millions, unlike other NBA players, like LeBron James, who will prop themselves up like a modern day Muhammad Ali, or other athletes who suffered real belief consequences, but are totally gutless when an issue comes to the forefront that could negatively impact their earning potential. When it comes to China, for example, LeBron James will shut up and dribble. I have no respect for that.

My neighbor growing up passed away from Covid without underlying conditions. He was in his early thirties and healthy. I’d love to hear you say this garbage to his wife and kids.

Ad hominem attacks and anecdotes. That’s what I’m getting from you these last couple days. Of course there’s a certain moderator who sets the tone for this stuff.
Maybe if you weren't defending bigotry and wilfully endangering others you wouldn't get "attacked".

Nobody feels sorry for you.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2022, 03:12:24 AM »

Offline ozgod

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I get JSD's point, at least regarding what I see as his main point.

It takes courage (or insanity) for somebody to stand up for their beliefs in the face of overwhelming pressure.  Studies have shown that most people don't do that; it's why there are very few 11-1 holdouts in jury trials.  Eventually, people compromise their beliefs due to peer / societal pressure.

The strength of will is unusual, and when it comes at personal sacrifice, perhaps it's something to be admired.  Of course, the counterargument is that it's simply stubbornness in the face of reason, and that one person's inaccurate opinion shouldn't allow them to be a risk to others.  That's why there's still a debate about this, months and years later.  But, on a basic level, "give me liberty or give me death" is a viewpoint that America has historically embraced.

This is part of the challenge in living in a world where everyone is connected and people's opinions can be amplified so quickly and easily. 30 years ago Cryrie would have been seen as an oddity, someone with weird views but harmless, because his views probably didn't go beyond his immediate circle. Now social media and the internet and technology allows his views (which he is certainly entitled to hold) to be immediately spread to hundreds if not thousands of people, and they get used in for-against arguments by people with vested interests. At what point does someone's opinion cross from just being their opinion and when does it start to become a risk to others? That's probably where that counterargument comes from.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Kareem blasts Kyrie
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2022, 01:14:14 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I get JSD's point, at least regarding what I see as his main point.

It takes courage (or insanity) for somebody to stand up for their beliefs in the face of overwhelming pressure.  Studies have shown that most people don't do that; it's why there are very few 11-1 holdouts in jury trials.  Eventually, people compromise their beliefs due to peer / societal pressure.

The strength of will is unusual, and when it comes at personal sacrifice, perhaps it's something to be admired.  Of course, the counterargument is that it's simply stubbornness in the face of reason, and that one person's inaccurate opinion shouldn't allow them to be a risk to others.  That's why there's still a debate about this, months and years later.  But, on a basic level, "give me liberty or give me death" is a viewpoint that America has historically embraced.

This is part of the challenge in living in a world where everyone is connected and people's opinions can be amplified so quickly and easily. 30 years ago Cryrie would have been seen as an oddity, someone with weird views but harmless, because his views probably didn't go beyond his immediate circle. Now social media and the internet and technology allows his views (which he is certainly entitled to hold) to be immediately spread to hundreds if not thousands of people, and they get used in for-against arguments by people with vested interests. At what point does someone's opinion cross from just being their opinion and when does it start to become a risk to others? That's probably where that counterargument comes from.
I think this is a good point. A lot of people love to say we're more divided now than we ever were which I don't think is true at all. We're not more divided now than we were when half of the country thought black people and white people shouldn't get married and that wasn't that long ago.

What's actually different now is through the internet and cable TV we're much more aware of local stories that aren't actually stories local to us. I see a lot more about the senate race in Pennsylvania than I do the governor's race in my own state because it's a juicier story.

The news will always focus on the most extreme cases but now we're being confronted with the most extreme cases in the country, and even the world, as opposed to the most extreme cases in our immediate geographic area which I think it how things used to be, even 20 years ago.
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