Is Grant a goner? (Yes: Traded to DAL for second rounders)

[celticinorlando]

I think Brad is done other then brown. Think they want roster flexibility as the season goes on and Brad actually thinks Hauser, Kornet, Banton, Brissett are all good enough to carry the bench

[Who]

I've never been a Grant fan but [dang] this bench is weak and the cs are 1 Tatum injury away from the play in tourney.  No depth.  I wonder if we see  brogdon deal for 2 bench pieces.  The cs now have plenty of minutes for a vet but the good ones are gone.

That is an interesting idea. How good is this team without Tatum?

Do we stay big and start Hauser. Keep Brogdon as 6th man.

G: D White, Pritchard
G: Jaylen, Brogdon
F: Hauser, Banton
F: Horford, Brissett
C: Porzingis, Rob Williams

Or maybe we go smaller. Star Brogdon. Jaylen to SF.

G: D White, Pritchard
G: Brogdon, Banton
F: Jaylen, Hauser
F: Horford, Brissett
C: Porzingis, Rob Williams


That five man starting unit is still really good. The bench is a major weak point though. Team will lose a lot of the ground that the starters create. Still, I would think a 45-49 win team. Some injury prone guys though so maybe they fall back to 40-44 wins.

I prefer the Brogdon on the bench team in the end. More important to have some talent coming off the bench to stabilize the rotation. Brogdon and Timelord give the bench two strong players for the others to play off of.

How good are any of the best teams without their star? Denver - Jokic, Milwaukee - Giannis, Miami - Butler, Philly - Embiid, Suns - Durant, etc.

They vary. Elite teams can sometimes maintain still be a 50 win team without their #1 guy. Other elite teams revolve so much around their star that they are not even a playoff team without him. Like the Suns with Steve Nash. Or the 2007-2010 Cleveland Cavaliers without LeBron. Or the 2015-19 Cavs without LeBron.

We can get some indication on some of those teams where their star missed a lot of games last season.

Jimmy Butler missed 18 games last year. The Heat went 9-9. They were 34-28 with him in the team.

MIL were 47-16 with Giannis and 11-8 without him.

PHI were 43-28 with Embiid and 11-5 without him. Having Harden to step up and take over the offense helped the burden for PHI. I would expect PHI to do well without Embiid because of Harden.

I would expect DEN to fall apart without Jokic. Similar to Nash or LeBron.


I would expect Boston to be better without Tatum. The reason being we have two legit stars (inside-outside) with Jaylen and Porzingis. Two more good bigs in Horford and Timelord. Two good guards in Brogdon and D White. That team still has a lot of talent.

I don't think they should be as vulnerable without Tatum as I think they are and I see it as danging information about Jaylen Brown & K Porzingis. That neither promotes much confidence in being able to lead a team. To make their teammates better. To take good individual players, bring them together and make them a team. Too individualistic.

[ozgod]

It's a little interesting that Brad opted to trade 3 guys who shoot the 3 really well in Grant, Muscala, and Gallo (presumption), and was all but settled on sending out Brogdon, their best 3-point shooter last year.  He did get rid of a toxic, high volume 3-point shooter in Smart and added a decent long-range shooter in KP, but since has added Walsh, Brissett, ad Banton -- all poor long-range shooters.  Seems to be a GM forcing a move away from a live by the 3 mentality that has not worked for this team.

Not to derail the thread NG, but it's interesting that we all think that Smartacus was a terrible three point shooter who should have kept away from the perimeter and stuck to passing, when last year he actually shot better than Jaylen from 3 in both the regular and post season. Jaylen was actually more of a toxic high volume three point shooter than Marcus was. Same with Jayson - shooting 35% from 3 in the regular season on the highest volume in the team is not very efficient. Certainly all 3 of them were well below GWill's regular and post season 3 points shooting of .395 and .450, albeit on lower volume. But we hated it when Smart did it more so than anyone else, when he's shot that percentage (.330 to .360) for the past five years. I think we were all scarred by his percentage in his first couple of seasons when he shot below .300. Also it's probably when he shot them as opposed to how well he shot them 

[Neurotic Guy]

It's a little interesting that Brad opted to trade 3 guys who shoot the 3 really well in Grant, Muscala, and Gallo (presumption), and was all but settled on sending out Brogdon, their best 3-point shooter last year.  He did get rid of a toxic, high volume 3-point shooter in Smart and added a decent long-range shooter in KP, but since has added Walsh, Brissett, ad Banton -- all poor long-range shooters.  Seems to be a GM forcing a move away from a live by the 3 mentality that has not worked for this team.

Not to derail the thread NG, but it's interesting that we all think that Smartacus was a terrible three point shooter who should have kept away from the perimeter and stuck to passing, when last year he actually shot better than Jaylen from 3 in both the regular and post season. Jaylen was actually more of a toxic high volume three point shooter than Marcus was. Same with Jayson - shooting 35% from 3 in the regular season on the highest volume in the team is not very efficient. Certainly all 3 of them were well below GWill's regular and post season 3 points shooting of .395 and .450, albeit on lower volume. But we hated it when Smart did it more so than anyone else, when he's shot that percentage (.330 to .360) for the past five years. I think we were all scarred by his percentage in his first couple of seasons when he shot below .300. Also it's probably when he shot them as opposed to how well he shot them 

It’s the when and it’s how he wrongly fed off his own success.

I can’t think of anyone else who I hoped would not hit his first couple of 3s.  Marcus could go 3-5 and I’d pray he wouldn’t shoot another. JT could go 0-5 and I’d want him to shoot (open looks).  It’s entirely possible that stats can prove my gut responses wrong - but I’ll stick with the eyeball test on this one.

[ozgod]

It's a little interesting that Brad opted to trade 3 guys who shoot the 3 really well in Grant, Muscala, and Gallo (presumption), and was all but settled on sending out Brogdon, their best 3-point shooter last year.  He did get rid of a toxic, high volume 3-point shooter in Smart and added a decent long-range shooter in KP, but since has added Walsh, Brissett, ad Banton -- all poor long-range shooters.  Seems to be a GM forcing a move away from a live by the 3 mentality that has not worked for this team.

Not to derail the thread NG, but it's interesting that we all think that Smartacus was a terrible three point shooter who should have kept away from the perimeter and stuck to passing, when last year he actually shot better than Jaylen from 3 in both the regular and post season. Jaylen was actually more of a toxic high volume three point shooter than Marcus was. Same with Jayson - shooting 35% from 3 in the regular season on the highest volume in the team is not very efficient. Certainly all 3 of them were well below GWill's regular and post season 3 points shooting of .395 and .450, albeit on lower volume. But we hated it when Smart did it more so than anyone else, when he's shot that percentage (.330 to .360) for the past five years. I think we were all scarred by his percentage in his first couple of seasons when he shot below .300. Also it's probably when he shot them as opposed to how well he shot them 

It’s the when and it’s how he wrongly fed off his own success.

I can’t think of anyone else who I hoped would not hit his first couple of 3s.  Marcus could go 3-5 and I’d pray he wouldn’t shoot another. JT could go 0-5 and I’d want him to shoot (open looks).  It’s entirely possible that stats can prove my gut responses wrong - but I’ll stick with the eyeball test on this one.

The stats nerds can probably come up with stats that would prove most of our gut feels and eyeballs wrong but gut feels and eyeballs are more fun for sure 

[Goldstar88]

Now on to some serious business…

Does Grant get a tribute video when he returns to Boston? Yay or nay.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Somebody told Brad that if he accumulated all the 2nd round picks in a particular year, he could shoot the moon.

Second-rounders are to Brad as timeouts are to Joe.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Somewhat-scattered thoughts:

   • Since second-round picks are apparently so valuable ... maybe we could send Dallas 3 or 4 of them in exchange for Grant Williams?
   • I think/hope Brad has more moves in mind, because with this trade, the roster is worse than it was 24 hours ago.
   • Is Brad modeling his approach after that of Red Sox GM Chaim Bloom? Because some of his recent moves remind me of Bloom's low-budget, dumpster-diving, prospect-heavy, throw-everything-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach.
   • In all seriousness, as I've been saying throughout this offseason, we can't get a good/fair evaluation of any of these moves until at least a year from now, when we see what Boston does in next season's playoffs.

[ozgod]

Now on to some serious business…

Does Grant get a tribute video when he returns to Boston? Yay or nay.

I'm sure he will. Maybe a 30 second one 

[gouki88]

Now on to some serious business…

Does Grant get a tribute video when he returns to Boston? Yay or nay.

I'm sure he will. Maybe a 30 second one 

[tenn_smoothie]

Are you kidding me ?

What's next Brad ?  Tatum for five 2nd round picks, a young G-League wing project and cash ?

He just gave Grant Williams away !!!!

If the front office thought Grant was of such low value because he played less and less minutes this season, then they are relying on the opinion of a clueless head coach. Looks like we are trying to build the best finesse, 3-point obsessed team in the league. Grant and Smart would always play tough and never back down from physicality. I suppose Porzingis can be our enforcer now. 

[tenn_smoothie]

Wyc, Stevens & Mazzulla for me are a slow and painful death for this iteration of the Celtics.

Exactly and very painful to watch.

[cman88]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

[ChillyWilly]

Wasn't a big Grant fan he was the typical Danny ainge small wide body big. We've seen this type on our roster for 20 years now. Not sad to finally be done with it.

[ozgod]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

We're not the only team that is losing players for inadequate returns. The new CBA is making it a lot harder for front offices to maintain deep benches, especially when you have like $100m tied up in three players and then $25m on the fourth (even before the extensions and supermaxes coming down the pike). Apparently we're $7m below the second apron as it is, even before Jaylen's supermax and KP's extension next season, so if we use the MLE it would hardcap us at the second apron for the season. The penalties are a lot more debilitating than just having to pay tax. They obviously don't start till next season but that's probably where the reluctance to carry long term salary - like if we had asked for incoming salary to match GWill's new contract - is coming from. So we can't even blame Wyc for being a cheapskate like we have been for the last few years 

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

Brad probably doesn't want to get hardcapped for the sake of filling out his deep bench. Sucks for us as fans, because the team will always have a weakness in the roster, but I think that's by design with the new CBA - no more Warriors superteams that linger because of an owner that is willing to pay $170m in tax a year.

But maybe Brad's not finished. He does have that MLE if he wants to get hardcapped, and the TPE if he doesn't. But I suspect neither will be used until midway through the season, when the needs are more obvious, if they get used at all. I know - BORING